THE WEB3 SUMMIT — Day 2
Speaker 11 Hello, everyone. Hopefully, everyone can hear me. What's up, TC? What's up? Hey.
Speaker 10 to see you. Stoked to be here with you. How are doing? Doing great. It's 1AM in Singapore, but I'm as energetic as you are. So I can't wait to kick start day two.
Speaker 11 Nice, man. I appreciate you spending the time late in the evening, late in the night, and joining us. And I'm stoked to talk about today's topic with you and, to dive in. For everyone just joining, welcome to the Web three Summit. This is day two. This is the first talk of the day with this absolute legend, TC. We're gonna be diving into the topic of curation, specifically the role of curation in shaping the narrative of crypto art. So for anyone who might not know TC, he has been championing artists on the timeline for as long as I've known him, as long as I've seen his profile, always posting amazing art, recently did an incredible curation. Tons of respect for this guy. He's the creative vision behind the Omakase show, a platform that shares the stories of digital artists through podcasts, webinars, exhibitions. And overall, he's an incredible dude. Really stoked to be chatting with you today, man. So welcome again. Thank
Speaker 10 you, Michael. Said, kudos to you, man. I mean, it's not easy to be being you know, like, whole holding this web three summit, putting so much energy, and also the curation that you did at the past, with the them. That's amazing. Love to be part of it, and thanks again for having me.
Speaker 11 I really appreciate that. Thank you, man. That means a lot to hear, especially coming from you. Let's go ahead and we'll dive in. Really, this is just a free flowing conversation. I really just wanna talk with you about how you look at art, specifically digital art and curations, and how you feel like the role of curation as we the title of the talk here is the role of curation in shaping the narrative of crypto art. And I think it's a really interesting topic because, ultimately, like, curation is a unique thing that people can do that anybody can really step up and do. All it really takes is having the heart to want to spend time, sit with the art, sit with these artists, organize the artists, organize an entire, you know, a setup.
It's not easy to do, but anybody out there who's listening, if you have a passion for art, you can become a curator by simply even in your own living room, even if you don't share it with anybody, by simply gathering artists. And, even if you didn't even talk to the artists, you could gather their work and put it together, piece it together into a larger cohesive project, if you'd say. So ultimately, curation, I think, is a really awesome topic that more people should really dive into. It definitely takes the bravado to want to get out there, put yourself out there, and do something. So I wanna ask you, like, how do you view curation as a whole? Do you feel like it's something that, more people should do? Do you feel like it's something that people should practice? And how do you think it impacts artists when a curation is done?
Speaker 10 100%. I I think you pretty much sum up what our curation is. Right? And I think, like, in this space, especially in web three for the digital art realm, it actually gives a lot of opportunities for, you know, collectors, artists, art lovers to be part of the curation. I found it amazing how you mentioned that if we have wall spaces at our apartment condos, you can curate your art pieces, your personal collection easily. That could be a great start. And even on our timeline, right, like, the the art that you share Right. The post that you share, I think it's just the art of storytelling. It's about the narrative. And at the same time, when it comes to curation, it always hit my soft spot because I wish I could draw. I wish I could, you know, perform art in different expression, and I see art curation in a way it's my expression.
It's how I could tell my stories through the art pieces of these amazing artists that we have, especially in this space that I I would love to, you know, use my energy and effort to support. So I see that, like, yeah, the barrier of entry in this space could be lower, but at the same time, the collaboration between art collectors, art lovers with artists a lot stronger than traditional art world. I grew up in Hong Kong where the art scene are pretty much focusing on sales. You go into all these amazing openings with champagne, red wines, you know, good food, good snacks, good catering, chitchat. It's good vibes. Right? But you just enter to a white walls, you know, seeing all these different arts. To be honest, the art feels like a decoration rather than a focus that you want to build up a conversation.
It's really like a social event. That's part of it, which is nice. But at the same time, I feel that, like, it's more than that. Right? What what we can do is apart from focusing on, say, on on sales, why not we provide, like, an art experience for art collectors? So before I dive into web three, I think that was, like, 2017. So me and my friends, we started a art curation company that we really want to do, like, different art exhibition that is outside of the White cube. Let's say we have it on a tram. Like, it's one of the iconic transport in Hong Kong. We focus on, like, photographies, which is, like, urban exploration, that kind of theme. So we see that, like, different curation can actually bring in different art experiences for the audiences to get connected.
So if people don't get connected to the art, how they can have, you know, conversations to build upon it and how we can, you know, even develop conversations with potential sales or, you know, like, knowing more about the the artist. Right? So if you're, like, in web three space, every yeah. We are we're still in a very tiny, tight knitted community, but at the same time, we just have to make good use of this tiny community to build things in a stronger way, which I feel that, like, there are a lot of opportunities from different platforms giving curation opportunities for art collectors, art lovers to to bring their, curation out. So it's it's amazing because, you can able to, showcase, artists that could be your friends or artists that you look up to. Imagine you can collaborate with them.
You can basically have a conversation with them, and, eventually, you can even bring sales to them. That's that's a dream come true. Right? But, of course, sales comes next, but what we really wanna focus, and especially for me, is to tell a story with all these different art pieces, like how we can showcase different artists' artworks. And at the same time, the spotlight are still there. Artists are not stealing each other's spotlight, but sharing the stage and having their works to be seen according to a theme, to a message. And I think this is what we really have to bring out, and especially do during our Basel two weeks ago in Miami, Seroton did a really great job not only to get the attention from the web fee.
Well, I feel bad, like, to get silenced as always because for the for the place that I'm currently in that I'm I'm restricted to to travel over because of my personal obligations and responsibilities, but but I would love to get to see AppBassol Hong Kong in March. I think, like, this is all about curation, how we can get the noise, get the, you know, attention, but in a more deeper way. So this is my quick thoughts when it comes to art creation, especially in in the battery space.
Speaker 11 Brilliant. Honestly, there's a lot of things that I wanna touch on there. Mhmm. Because you're obviously incredibly passionate about putting art together and, like, gathering artists for really the right reasons. Because what you're doing is you're lifting up these artists. And in a space like the space that we're in, Web three, we have a really, really amazing opportunity right now because it's such a small space. It's very tight knit. Like you said, we can reach out to basically anybody and get in touch with them and work with them potentially, at least make an offer to see if it might align. I'm curious, like, when you were putting together your recent curation on super rare, how was that process for you? What did you learn in that process? What was, like, tough parts about it? What were the parts that most fulfilled you? Like, tell us a bit about how that went and what you took from it.
Speaker 10 Yeah. First off, throw flowers to the Super Rare team. Jono and Anne, they are they are being super helpful, and they're they're so open minded to give me, like, the freedom to create, to come up with artists that wanna collaborate with. So I think, like, the most rewarding part is not about the sales, but, obviously, thankful. I'm grateful for the collectors that eight p seven out of the eight pieces were sold. And what I feel rewarding is, like, how I shared the creation, the curatorial statement of the artist. They resonated. And it actually gave them another perspective to translate the message of the creation into their works. And and it's amazing how rewarding it is when they feel that, like, wow. This is something that I've been in my mind for so long. So, actually, the whole creation is about a wake up call, and I've chopped that down into three different phases.
So we launched the first phase in October. So during the wake up call, we realized that the first phase is about dismantled, discouraged. It's about denial that you realize that something is wrong, but you are so getting used to your old habits and you don't wanna get things right, and you you are going on that denial phase. So I think this is a moment that not only us as, but us as human beings, we will be coming across in in our daily lives. Right? So I just wanna put out this topic out and see what all these artists will come back to me. And I purposely chosen collage, like, all these different art styles, so, like, collage art, illustrations, glitched art. I feel that, like, these are the art styles that could able to portray these kinds of emotions.
So it's I mean, it's the connection, like, how we view this together. It's a collaboration, like, a collaborative energy that brought us out. And, also, I learned a lot about the the marketing, and I realized that what you did is amazing as well. Like, imagine the curation that you did. You've been, like, highlighting over a 100 artists, I guess. And you have been, like, using very clear guide for collectors, artists to go through. Imagine you you need the version to collectors and you need another version for artists. The communication needs to be amazed it is needs to be top notch. Right? And you need to be, like, so thoughtful about it. So I guess the curation comes to place is not only about the show, the works that be part of it, but also, the marketing, what time to fill in that feeds, the GM post that you did showcasing different artists, how it shouldn't be too lengthy because, like, people don't really read, right, nowadays.
So how to make it easy for, the audiences at the same time able to present the message out without, you know, burning out. So there's a lot to consider, but but I think that, like, we are having fun and we are not stressed about, like, we're gonna focus on sales. I think that's a good part for me to fit in because I love collecting, but I would love to do more apart from just collecting. So what can I do to support an artist? So I really want to make good use of creation platform and platforms that are being supportive to do that, and I see that Web three is definitely a space that allow us to do so. But, of course, we also have to sharpen our pencils. We see amazing creators like Rita. I learned a lot from her.
So I think in the space, I interviewed her about creation, and she mentioned about, like, whenever you have a creation, you need to think about, like, how it gonna impact the art world and how how it play a part in the art movement. And that actually, blew my mind because I didn't realize that, like, oh, one single, creation would actually play a small impact. So imagine, like, if there are, like, amazing creations throughout the year, everyone really put out the 100%, without only thinking about sales. But, of course, we need to focus on sales as well because, like, that's actually how to keep everything sustainable. Right? But I think, like, what really fits the core is to with to with no expectation on sales, but to just to focus on the art, and I think the rest will come.
So this is actually what I've been, you know, pitching my my artists as well. Like, yeah, market is bad, market is good, whatever. Because, like, when it comes to art, we we are not restricted by the art the the market conditions, but how your art is connected to people. So just be genuine. Just do whatever you feel like during that moment through that curatorial message. And I think, like, that pretty much would able to bring a Success to to to an exhibition. Yeah.
Speaker 11 Lovely. Really, really well put. I love how your focus is around really again, like I said, lifting up the artists because everything does really flow from that point. Obviously, you know, like you mentioned, the curation that we worked on, we did two in the last six months. One or three, sorry, in the last six months. The largest of them being 99 total artists, the second largest 55, and the third largest being 26. And basically, when you work with that many artists, you have a really large impact and you have a lot of reach. The largest reach we had was 630,000 views on the single post with 99 artists. So, like, you're mentioning about how, you know, you're working with these artists. You have to be very careful with how you interact with them. You have to stay in touch with them.
You have to really move everybody along to the final point of getting the work out while also helping guide them on submitting what is really, hopefully, their best, genuine work that they would wanna submit. Something that really aligns and feels good to them, but also really fitting it into the overall package of the curation. And it's really difficult to do that because, you know, it's hard to tell somebody even like, hey. Like, how do we, like, adjust? You know? Like, what what I personally learned is that you there's never a reason to tell an artist that the work is not good or that it's not, like, up to a certain standard. It's never about that at all, actually.
Speaker 11 The artist's work is always what it should be. It's more about wondering what the actual reasoning and the, like, intention behind the work is and fitting it into the overall I think of it almost like a mosaic. Like, you fitting it all together. It's all coming together, and, like, each one is gonna fit into its own spot to make the larger piece. And, ultimately, the work itself is always going to be something that if the intention is genuine and it's there, that's the artist's side of it. Now the curator's side of it is about piecing it together and making it all work. So it's like it's a very curious puzzle to try to endeavor to put together, especially when you're in the public eye. And I'm curious, like, how you felt about working with the artists and bringing everything together and promoting it.
What do you think was, like, the toughest part of curating if you're speaking to somebody who wants to get started and doing their own curation?
Speaker 10 Back to your point, think, like, you you made a really good point. It's like it's like a orchestra. Right? And creators like to make sure the music, the tempo, the rhythm, the fives are there. I feel that, like, the hardest part is to get out of our comfort zone and to just connect to or pick or select I I hate to use that word pick and select artists because for me, yeah, in a way, we selected artists, and it's so hard to say no and, you know, like, to you you know what I mean. Right? Like, if if they're, like, foldings on on some part particular artists are not there, unfortunately, we couldn't pick it. But at the same time for me, I I I rather not to do, like, open calls and stuff like that because artists might have received a lot of rejections already throughout the entire four four seasons.
So and we are now in, like, a crypto winter. Right? But but what my point is, I'm trying to say is try to say stay out of your commerce zone and just to support and remember the artists that you normally able to see seen on your timeline. I think it's getting a lot easier, but at the same time, overwhelming to have to to do, like, artist discoveries on the timeline. And the amazing thing is, like, today, that'll be one of the topics talking about art discoveries, and I will definitely tune in to do recordings because it's gonna be my, like, three, 4AM. But but by the way, you're gonna be moderating, like, five hours straight.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I did it yesterday, and I wasn't completely like, I was actually energized when we finished, surprisingly.
Speaker 10 Awesome. Yeah. I'll turn back to the first day. But, yeah, going back to topic, I think it's, like, the hardest part is to stay out of your comfort zone because, like, for me, of course, at the start, for my first curation with the All Mark Caste show, I I restrict I shouldn't say restricted, but I tried to you know, it's a celebration of the end year, so I've been working with the artists that I welcome, you know, as a guest speaker to the Omar Kase show and we throw this online exhibition on OnSyber. And there are, like, around, I think, 14 to 15 of them. And I think at the start, that that is great, but I think that we need to try to look for more artists, explore more, and go for different styles.
I might not be collecting a lot of photograph like, photographs, but I I've been looking into it recently, and I found the joy and the the the beauty from photographs. So I've been starting to think of, like, oh, for my next creation, I definitely need to include and, like, photography, this specific medium, and also with AI. It's also, like, how we're getting out of our comfort zones. It might not be things that we have been collecting consistently because, like, I love portraits. I love abstract. I love certain colors like
Speaker 10 But when it comes to creation, you need to erase and remove all these because, like, it's not like TC's, you know, playlist. You know what I mean? It needs to be, like, how all these artists come together to share that message and to shine on their own and come together in in harmony. So I think that's the most hardest part. And and also communication. Speaking with artists is not easy because, like, obviously, they are always working with their works, and they they may not be online and as active as we are. So we need to always build in a buffer when it comes to communication, meeting deadlines. The timeline needs to be there. So it needs to be respectful as well, but also that needs to be accurate and and straightforward when it comes to that line.
And the last thing I think is also tricky is to talk about the the the commission for creators because, like, a lot of people might think that, like, creators are so great. Like, they bring opportunities to to artists, but at the same time, it's also very hard for them to ask for, like, you know, their their own percentage of commission that how much they should get. I think this will be sometimes it might be sensitive, but I think it should be fine if you come straight and transparent at the start. And and a lot of artists, they understand that as well, especially in 2025 while we're approaching 2026. I I I have come across issues when it comes to talking about commission at the start. But but I think, like, communication always solves the problem and always be respectful and always remember the art comes first, and that's the first priority.
So I think these are the main challenges that I I've come across right now.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I mean, when it comes to commission, like, it's it's definitely you have to be straightforward from the beginning. Like, you have to have everything set from the start exactly how everything's gonna be and lay it all out and get on the same page. And that way, you can move forward together. So, like, with, you know, SuperRare, for example, they're already they have a 10% that goes to them. And then, you know, when it comes to, like, actually getting the artists together, do you think that there's a difference between, like, you know, say somebody does a curation, but they just invite 10 artists or 20 artists or five artists, and the artists submit work, and then the platform takes the work, and then they get auctioned. Like, do you consider that a curation, or what do you feel like really is what makes a curation? Is it beyond just gathering artists and putting the work together?
Speaker 10 Yeah. 100%. I mean, even gathering artists needs to be a creative group of artists to be part of that specific exhibition. Because, like, I feel that what makes a a group exhibition amazing, it's how different styles, different art languages all these artists are bringing, but at the same time, they can come together and share the same message in different voices. So I feel that, like, it needs to be there's there's need to be intentions. Can't just anyhow group artists together, do, like, a oh, there's a Christmas celebration. We have every artist coming in for open quotes, calling a drop. It's it's more like I wouldn't say it's like a curation because I feel like curation has, like, a meaning, and every artist needs to be there for a reason. So I'd rather, you know, go through my my my timeline and go through my brain cells and to handpick artists that are part of the exhibition.
And I'm sure that all these artists that being handpicked, they will have the privilege, and they would they would they would feel that, like, they are be being seen, and they they happen to be here for a reason rather than, you know, go through, like, a competition. I feel that, like, sometimes open are quite lazy. But but I mean, like, open calls are not like those, hey. Share your art. I'm gonna buy some art, but not not that kind because, like, those kinds are, like, I don't know. It feels like charity work sometime. But for me, I try to stay away from that because if I want to buy art, I need to go down to that rabbit hole to do my research, to do my homework, and to know the artist. I send them DMs. I I I need to have a conversation with them.
I'm not trying to, you know, justify whether this guy should be the one that I collect from, but I want to know them more apart from the works that they they they're doing. Right? The work in progress, what are they struggling with, what what can I help them with, what what are their focus right now? Are they doing, like, additions of additions, one on ones, upcoming collections? What chain are they focusing on? I wanna know everything. And when I know everything, like, sort of everything, their approach as a creator, you can able to help them to put them into different areas. Right? So right now, we are blessed with different platforms that are still standing firm. So we really have to work closely with all these different platforms. Let's say, Transient Maps, they're really good with technology, interactive art.
First, fellowship, they they do a lot of amazing creation as well, and they also have, you know, occasional good IRL gallery space and even super rare. So we really have to help these artists and help them to fill in the blanks, and how we can help them is to know about their art, know about their their crafts, know about their there's there's one thing that is really important, which is the integrity. Us' integrity is also very important. So I feel that, like, knowing about them as friends definitely help for us to help them even more. So we're not just helping an us. We're helping our friends, and we are collaborating together. So I feel that, like, this connection is so important to know an office as a friend, and it's so easy to do this in web three in comparison to web two. Right?
So we have to take this opportunity to send us to send us a DM and to kick start the conversation.
Speaker 11 Yeah. Like, we're so networked and connected in web three Mhmm. Versus web two. You literally have to be out there in the galleries, in the, like, scene. Everything in this virtual world of web three allows us to do things that literally were not possible in more of a web two environment. Like, it's not possible to just, in a month, get ten, twenty, 30, a 100 artists together to submit a work, minted onto the blockchain into a cohesive curated collection that you work with each individual artist from all over the world and then deliver that to collectors to be able to collect. That's just not a possibility. These things take way longer if you're doing it in the physical realm. Right? You have to have the physical works. You have to have them sent to you. You have to display them and take care of them, make sure they don't get damaged.
Like, you know, with the digital asset museum, we did three or two full set opportunities for collectors. You can't do a full set for in the physical realm just in a month. It's going to be something that's gonna take, you know, much longer, maybe six months or longer just to get all of that stuff. And how many people can even buy a full set? Where are you gonna put all of the art? You know? Mhmm. So it's like, these things are all unlocked with web three in a way that did not exist with web two. So I'm curious, like, touching back on the, open call style. Like, what about an open call do you feel is not in alignment for you?
Speaker 10 That's a great question. Because, like, in general, I'm not a open I feel that open call you you know normally, you get a lot of engagements within open call post to a point that, like, I don't see how the the intern or the admin that for all the Open Call would able to go through all the art. You know what I mean? And and I figured, like, open call somehow it's quite random, and there's no focus despite despite there might be a theme, like, oh, gonna be anime. There's no AI or or there's only AI. There's, like, a certain art medium that needs to be submitted. And and and and the worst thing is about the rejection, like, not being chosen. Like, imagine hundreds, two hundreds people commented, but there'll only be five, be picked. Of course, that would be amazing.
I'll be, like, incredibly happy if I'm one of them being picked. Right? But what about the the 251¢ not being paid? So I feel that, like, we shouldn't bring in this kind of rejections anymore because, like, we have so many already. So why not having not to be that lazy. I mean, like, putting more effort on creating probably your art community and then try to distinguish, like, who are the artists that you want to slowly, including into your community, and then you work for them. You help them to do, like, different calibrations. Just like even six five two nine. Right? Like, they they do, like, the folding as well, but at the same time, it's it's ongoing folding. If you didn't win this week, it's fine. You still have, like, the second week, the third week, the fourth week. But the thing is, like, you have to know about the culture.
You have to know about, like, who are these collectors. So in a in a way, I feel like six five two nine memes are are great because, like, a lot of artists are being featured and got this opportunity, to get their art being seen by our community. But at the same time, I don't I don't see, I feel like it's a design more than more than an art piece because you need to fit in or or not to fit in, but you have to create something that related to a meme culture, six five two nine, and within this brand, if you know what I mean. So it's also great. There's, like, opportunities. There there's, like, doors to open for for artists to to get more in size, to get sustainable, and to get their name out there.
But at the same time, I feel that true art is really an expression that it doesn't need to have a meaning, to be honest. Right? Because, like, if it's a design, you have to serve a purpose. That actually how it sets a designer and an artist apart. So I feel that, like, I'm probably going way too far. I forgot a question.
Speaker 11 No. No. No worries at all. I I love what you're saying. Like, to touch the the initial question is, like, about open calls and, like, how Open calls. Like, an open call, it's to me, this could be a hot take, but it's not curating. Like, curating is when you put it together from a person. You can't automate curation. It's not possible. Like Mhmm. It wouldn't be a curation if it's just an automated process. It's like, okay. Everybody submit all of this work Yeah. To this giant thing, and then they're gonna pick, like, three works or whatever or 10 works. Well, you're not actually creating the relationship with the artist. You're not actually asking the artist to create for a specific type of thing. Maybe you're saying, okay. Make under this theme. But the artists that are applying to open calls as well, they're not they're just, like, shooting their work out there in the hopes that maybe it's selected.
It's not really like a, you know, a relationship that's being developed or, like, an opportunity that's being given to them, they're not, like, being selected by the person to be a part of it as much as, like, anybody could comment on that. Right? Anybody can submit that. So it's like a lazy way to try to get people to submit stuff, I think. But, like, in the case of you know, I've seen people do open calls, and then they're like, we're gonna display all these works. Like, Beeple did an open call, and he's like, we're gonna pick CryptoPunk related art, and we're gonna display it. My art was selected. Then I went there, and there was, like, thousands of people's works selected. Went in person in Charleston. Like, that's a cool thing, but that's not a curation. What it is is really just having people send works in, and you're just picking whichever ones.
Like, a curation is when you're really developing an intention. There's a person or an entity behind it. And I think that when it comes to the rejection side of things, it's very taboo to talk about how, like, you know, rejecting artists or artists not being a part of something. Artists will face rejection all the time no matter what. That's part of being an artist. And I think that it's about more so giving people the opportunity to deal with rejection or giving them an understanding of, like, you know, on the case of the digital asset museum, our curation style is a way of inviting artists in. So we create a cohort, and then we have a group of people on a board that vote on all of the works and come together and cocurate the whole collection. So it inevitably involves a rejection process, and it's tricky dealing with that.
Not everyone is happy about getting rejected even no matter how transparent you could be upfront about the process. There's still people that might not read into it fully or they might not enjoy creating something and then it not being fit into the overall curation. But I think that as curators, we can't be afraid of telling an artist no because that's gonna also hinder the actual curation itself. It's gonna create something where you're now allowing the outside forces to affect what it is you're trying to put together. Mhmm. But, you know, at the same time, like, we have to be very gentle with the... That process. We can't... We have to be very respectful with that process. And everybody is different.
I think that there's different ways of doing curations, but ultimately, the core of it is having that intention and working to lift these artists up and working to make them be really coming out of it regardless of whether they're selected or not, coming out of it with something more than they came into it with. So... Mhmm. Yeah. I guess that's my two way, but I really respect the way that you look at the whole entire process and how you're thinking about how you're working with the artist, how you're making a friend with that artist, you're building a relationship with that artist. That's what's happening. Right? And then all those artists working together, the overlap the overlap of their audiences, that's another powerful part of curating. Like Mhmm. You could bring an emerging artist in with someone who's more well known.
Now the well known artist has the incentive of wanting to share the curation. The emerging artist is gonna share the curation. There's not the exact same audience. So that right there is also building up the space. So, like, I guess I wanna ask you about how your process for going in and, like, finding artists and discovering artists. Where are you learning about new artists? Where are you going to find new artists work? Is it all happening on x?
Speaker 10 Mainly on x. And at the start, actually, I I discovered artists on on Instagram, but that was, like, when I was so into physical paintings during 2018, 2019 before COVID times, which it's quite popular to reach out to artists that are not represented by any galleries yet. But when it comes to digital art, crypto art, I'm thankful that finally my timeline, my feeds are fused out with, like, Infofy, you know, like, farmers, you know, degens, that kind of shit. And it's pretty much, art related. So I would get to see... And, you know, like, the energy in this space. Right? Like, artists always, you know, repost their friends' art, and, actually, that's how I get to see, you know, different artists. And and also, like, the creation that you guys did, man.
Like, thanks for always having me to be part of the the selection coding process because through that process, I I learned a lot of new artists, and I followed them on on X. And I I also learned through, like, how you you just bring out the artist profile so nicely with their their their, like, their mission, their their objectives, you know, their medium, their info, and their art. Like, everything is in one page, and even their their contacts, like their socials. So I found a lot of amazing artists through, you creations from yours as well and especially creations from different platforms. And Art Spaces, I love joining Art Spaces and also shout out to Justin that have been doing his everyday spaces for his project. And through these kind of spaces, I get to meet a lot of new artists as well.
First as well, I love their podcast, what they're doing. They're not only focusing on web three crowd, but also welcoming, like, David Strickley's podcast and have a view on his perspectives on NFTs. So that's great because, like, I know we'll be talking about Web two and Web three, the the the onboarding process tomorrow. But but I think that, like, there's no web two and web three anymore because you... We can see artists right now in this space. They can do both traditional art and, you know, they can do art digitally. And at the same time, their works, if they're not selling online, their works could also be seen in in in real life. So I just feel that, like, it's how we communicate and how we talk about that. But I'm still so bullish on digital art because of, you know, every day, we we now...
I I don't think Gen Z even go to galleries anymore. I love going to galleries, but I feel like if you go into galleries, sometimes you get judged by how you dress. I don't know if that's a thing in in in The States or or in different parts of the I would say, yeah. For sure. That and the galleries is cold as fuck. Right? Sorry for the f word. But but but, I mean, like, if you just appreciating art in, like, on cyber, on a digital space with your pajamas without, like, styling your hair. You can just, like, be yourself, sing art, zoom in, zoom out, you know, get into know more about the artist. It's just between you and the art. I just feel that, like, there's more focus on the art with no distractions.
I feel that, like, there are a lot of distractions in real life that actually afforded that actually afforded us to connect with art. So I feel that, like, through digital art and the interactive elements, the experience, just see how the bubble mints and also the creation that they did in Art Basel got a lot of attention, like, even the message. Right? Money laundering, NFTs, like, all these kind of controversial elements bringing together and being proud and saying that, like, hey. This is NFT. So what? Right? So sometimes we are even... We're we're so afraid of even seeing these three lattice NFTs. Right. We we will try to phrase it as the digital art, crypto art, try to make it fancier. But but at the end at the end of they're NFTs. Right? So I feel that, like, we just have to be proud and be...
And at the same time, grounded on how early we are and to celebrate what we have and just to bring this further.
Speaker 11 Thousand percent. And, you know, NFT, it's the underlying technology that allows us to trade these artworks. Like, it allows us to track who's owned these artworks or who else owns the same artwork if you have an addition. Like, it gives more value to the art because now you know its story and its timeline and, like, when it was minted. And all of that providence is so brilliant. And I think that, you know, art and NFTs... Like, NFTs, most people think about PFPs or they think about Bored Apes or maybe even Cryptopunks if they know about punks. But, like, I think that a person from super far out in the space, they might have seen, like, Bored Apes, and they're like, that's NFTs. And then that's all they really understand. But in reality, NFTs could be so much more than than just art.
It could be anything to track property and track ownership and track provenance. So I think that we have a lot of growth to do, and it's about having these kinds of conversations in an open format where people can have an interface to learn more and actually a place to go to learn more. Things like Art Basel allow people to see that the digital art environment and NFTs are still very much alive and thriving in its own little pocket of the universe. And I love that, and I have tons of respect for what they did with Art Basel. I think, though, you know, we were speaking yesterday in something Brian Brinkman, who I have a ton of respect for, he said Art Basel, it onboards a lot more collectors, which is fantastic. But now how are we also onboarding artists? How are we onboarding more creatives?
And I think that curations allow for people to kinda see, like, you know, an emerging artist blow up because of a curation. If that can happen, that's what brings more people in, I think. I think that's what attracts and creates that ripple effect is, like, lifting up the space by the base, which is the emerging artists. So, like, on the topic of curation and discovery, when you're finding people on x, how would you feel if you were an emerging artist? What would you do to get the attention of a curator or, maybe that's not the best way to put it. What I'm basically trying to say is, like, it's not about fighting for attention, but more so, like, what would you say to an artist who's starting out right now who you would ideally wanna discover them, but maybe you haven't?
What would you do as an artist if you were an emerging artist? And if you're speaking to one, what would you tell them to build up their brand and get them involved in more things that can elevate them?
Speaker 10 I would say, you have to build your presence. You have to be... I mean, of course, being active, but at the same time, you have to know your your audience. You have to know... You have to have a eagerness to build a community. Because, like, what you just mentioned about how we're gonna onboard artists is is also depends on whether the artist, you know, mentality and attitude, whether they want to build a community. Some artists don't even bother to build a community. They just want gallery to take care of whatever art they have, and they just wanna focus on the art. But I think that, like, in this space, it's more than that. You have to talk about your art. You have to... It... It's like how desperate you are because, like, you just want people to see your art, but at the same time, don't go to the, toxic road.
Right? So for my... For me, for my, like, 2¢, I would say that it's to build your presence, not to grind any collectors or or or, you know, say GM and stuff like that, but build your work in progress, showcase your art style, and focus on the style that you feel that, like, this is what represents you. I understand that derivatives... Building, like, art derivatives, let's say, like, Pong derivatives, ape, so or or... Gets copy look alike would get you quick engagement. But in general, I think, like, these are, like, instant noodles. You know what I mean? Like, they are they are, like... They're they're they're... There's, like, they they they feed you, like McDonald's fast food. They feed you, but there's, like, not much nutrients, but they they they taste good. But... Which I won, like, 100 McDonald's in a week.
No. So I feel like you need to really build your own language, and then you can attract your audience. You you don't need to have, like, a millions collectors. I mean, like, even having 15 or even 10 loyal supporters and collectors that gonna support every post that you're gonna share, but in a genuine way, I think that helps a lot for, like, just an artist being in this space and get overwhelmed by, you know, like, all these fake accounts collected and stuff like that. That's one artist I wanna shout out. His name... Their name is called r k w. I think they are being so focused on the minimalism, the simplicity of their art, and they're not rushing to mint their works. Or even though you can mince your works because that's the profit. That's the blockchain. Right? Like, make good use of it to to to get that transparency out there.
But don't try to, you know, rush for sales, talk about your art, but talk about your art in a in a decent manner, not, like, chunky paragraphs. You know? Like... And I don't think frets right now works as well. Think of different ways to get attention. I know that sucks because, like, that that comes in marketing as well. But to be honest, way in a way that, like, a a normie, not even about art, they're gonna be a freaking good TikTok, you know, throwing shot clips. They... They're good at ad business and stuff like that. That's the next generation because they are always, they're they're asked and trained to do so. Right? So my point is, know your audience, communicate with them, and build your own community or being part of a community.
And it takes time for you to fight with and find your community, and and it took me time to get into different NFTs, communities. And and, eventually, I I I found found my comfort zones that can purely talk about art, talk about, like, whatever I want. So I feel that, like, that's the main goal is find your voice through your art, share your progress, and through that, you'll find your audience. And from finding your audience, you can form your own communities. And through that, you can start doing, like, a small collection or even an addition and try that out. And and I feel like this is... That's that's the the path or the the the the way that I will try to tell any emerging artists that want to dive into this space.
Speaker 11 I like... I really like the way you put that. Like, it's... It seems like the organic way of just realizing, like, you don't need a million people to love your work. Really, you just need to create your own presence, and the people that vibe with what you're building will be attracted to you. So it's like an abundance state instead of, oh, like, I need the attention of everybody or I need all of these people. Like, you know, one of the things I love to do every once in a while, just for the perspective and for the inspiration as well, is to go through xCopies Tumblr. If you go back... Have you ever done that? Not yet, but I've just been
Speaker 11 Yeah. Man, I think you would love it. Just looking back, and he's like, nobody's buying my art. Like, this is, like, not even very long ago, like, four years ago. Like, he's, like, trying to give away art. No one's even accepting it for free. And now we know how big that x copy's become and iconic and absolutely, basically, you know, paved the path for glitch art in Web three and, you know, absolute legend, like, utmost respect for XCopy for what they've accomplished and created in the the vision that they had and just seeing that on Tumblr from the origins of it. Like, just posting, posting, posting, posting, and some posts start to take off. And then he's just like, oh, sold an artwork today. Like, it's just really something unique about that.
And it makes you realize, like, you have something in your heart that you can put into work, into your art, you don't anymore have to worry about going out to all of these places in person. Like, it's almost like if you're building any sort of business, trying to sell your product only in person would obviously limit you. And now we can, you know, interact with so many people online all at once by building a brand, and, really, a lot of it is happening on x. So it's really cool, like, to think about that. Like, an emerging artist can just continue to post, continue to pour their time in, continue to really focus on mastering their craft, building their language, like you said. Something interesting yesterday we discussed was, like, how art is your currency. So an artist's currency is their work. You're building your own currency.
And, ultimately, like, Xcopy's currency, it's provenance being minted from his wallet. Like, if he mints a one zero one from his wallet, that's that's his currency, and now it's printing money ultimately. It's printing value, and that's really, really fascinating. So I think that, like, for anyone listening who is on the emerging side or even feels like they want to start creating art, that you just have to pour your heart into it, be very genuine, and then let the rest fall into place. Put yourself out there. Let people discover you by just posting and, like... And then if nobody likes your posts, great. Because it's gonna look that much cooler when you do start getting noticed from your consistency, just like x copy, how cool it is to look back at his Tumblr. So, yeah, I think it's very fast. Yeah.
So just to kind of wrap things up, I wanna ask you one more thing about how you view art and what you really look for in your own personal collecting style. What really makes you notice an artist, or what makes you really feel connected to an artist's work? I know you mentioned, like, threads and different things are kind of chunky and kind of blocky, and they don't really resonate a 100%. Is is that, like, a personal thing, do you think? Or do you feel like that in general, it's just not the way? Or, ultimately, like, what is attracting you to collect from an artist that you haven't collected from before?
Speaker 10 Wow. That's a very good question. I I just... I know that sounds... That... That's like... For me, I just go with my instincts. Like, I think this year, I... I've been collecting a lot of RJ's work. I just like how genuine. I like how raw an art piece is. Love RJ. Yeah. It might be childlike, but not really. It could be Basquiat style. No. Because, like, I feel that it could be just another derivative of Basquiat. Right? So what's the point of collecting it? But I feel that it's I feel that it's, like, art that when I look into it, I... It's not only about a connection, but it it... It's so emotional. And I feel like RJ's works are always like this. It's so simple. It's like day to day lives, like, probably the subject with blonde hair, holding Like his his toothpaste right in front of the mirror, and that's it.
I'll I'll probably, like, fry an egg or bleeding, you know, that kind of stuff. But it's I I love how randomness, and there's no, like, a solid narrative on how the art should go. Something that blew my mind, like, oh, what the fuck? That gave me, like, this wow factor, and that's how I really want to know more about it. It's it's not about, like, oh, it's like, like, wow, like, scallops, you know, that kind of stuff. Those are, like, fast foods. Like, they they taste good. Right? Like, good for the eyes, but but if the more you eat, like, there's no nutrients. So there's art, like I feel that, damn, there are nutrients out there. There there's, like, another layer that you can keep unfolding it. And whenever you see it, it gives you, like, different perspectives. That that's the art that I always, like, appreciate.
And it doesn't limit to any medium, so I can't really tell, like, oh, is it a certain is it GIF, or is it a JPEG, or is it photography, or is it animation? But in general, I just see that, like, it it's the colors. Oh, colors actually play play a big part as well. And and words or even probably the title plays a a bit, like, 20%, but, you know, the description, I feel that less is more. Imagine next copy, he don't even really explain explain his works right, but but, obviously, you have to reach that level in order to not you have to put everything untitled. But I just feel that, like, less is more, let the audiences to have the space and, yeah, to have the space to to connect with the art. Always leave space for for audience rather than feeding too much information.
I feel like, oh, am I am I I on a lecture right now? Like, try to learn more about this art, like, what it means, but sometimes the bold you read, the bold questions you have, that that might be a thing. But for me, I I pretty like fish oils. Like, fish oils attracted my my attention. So but this is a very personal point of view. A lot of other collectors might want to read more about it. But I feel like always have your website ready, right, like, with your with your Linktree and everything that that you can get to see all the works across all chains. You can have, like, lengthy descriptions or even newsletters. Recently, I've been obsessed with newsletters to really I feel that, like, newsletters are amazing because you feel that, like, it's a conversation the artist without, it's a it's a one way conversation from the artist.
You get the expression from them. Like, I feel that, like, there's a lot of emotion within the newsletter that they are being very, they can be themselves. It's a very personal letter to the supporters. So I feel like, make good use of newsletters to let the audiences that subscribed and interested to your art to know more about your background. But on X, there are a lot of people. Right? And, also, the algorithm, the engagement plays a big part. If, like, there's an odd piece that got 100 likes rather than, like, a piece that with only one to two likes, of course, the one with the 100, like, got the attention. Right? But for me, I try to also help to use my Leader platform to boost up all these, like, small accounts. I hate to to use use the word small accounts, but sometimes, like, all these emerging artists need support.
Right? So I feel like we also have to play a part to to always uplift this artist that always wants to be seen in this space.
Speaker 11 I love that comment on newsletters too. Like, I completely agree. But and and also for the newsletters thing, that's like something that, you know, in the last couple years, you post on x, everyone kinda sees what you're doing. You don't rely on any sort of, like, advertising or any anything besides an organic x post. Like, that would really work. And now I feel like there's just you can't really rely on the algorithm to share what you're working on, especially you spend months building something. And then you put it out there on x, and then now you're just hoping that people will see it. And building an email list is a way to really get a direct mainline broadcast out to the people who want to hear about what you're doing. So, like, I think it's really smart for artists to spend the time to get an email list of their collectors together.
And then when they're doing something, they can let them know because we always are checking our email. Maybe we'd miss the email too, but probably are more likely if we got sent an email to see it than just to stumble across something in the feed. So I completely agree. And you can also do a lot of storytelling that way. Yeah. Really, really powerful. This has been an amazing talk, TC. I again, I really appreciate you. 1AM, 2AM now where you are Mhmm. Spending the time today and sharing your wisdom, sharing your experience. Really means a lot. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been
Speaker 10 incredible. For having me. Now I understand why you're too energized. Now I can't sleep, so I gotta stay tuned to the to the next to the next talk.
Speaker 11 Nice. Yeah. Well, we've got an epic talk coming up. Brian Brinkman, Sayers, and Anna Maria Caballero. It's gonna be incredible. So we're gonna take a quick break, and we'll dive into that next talk. Much love, TC. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Later, man. We'll talk to you soon. Alright. We'll take a quick break, just like one minute. We'll be right back. And we've got our panelists backstage, and we will get started shortly. Alright.
Speaker 11 Alright. Let's get started with our next panel. Super stoked to introduce these three incredible human beings. Welcome, everybody. Alright. Thank you, guys. Can you guys hear me? Yep. Alright. Welcome. Super stoked to chat. This panel today is going to be building a successful artistic practice. So this is bound to be an incredible, incredible talk. I just wanna quickly introduce these three incredible people, starting with Anna. Anna Maria Caballero, she's a graduate of Harvard and author of eight books. She's cofounded the digital poetry gallery, the Verse Verse, and she's a recipient of an Academy of American Poets Prize, the Beverly International Literature Prize, Columbia's Jose Manuel Arango National Poetry Prize, the Steel Toe Books Poetry Prize, an absolute incredible acumen. And I've been seeing you all over my feed, Anna, from Art Basel and the incredibly clever project you launched with letting people make edits on poetry that you wrote.
That is so clever. And I wanna also introduce Brian Brinkman. Brian is an award winning multimedia artist who utilizes his career in animation and motion graphics to create fun and inventive ways to convey ideas about creative processes and the crypto art space that are both approachable and appealing. Also, Brian is always active and there for this space. He's somebody who he really cares about this space and really, I think, pours his heart in for all sorts of people who are working to build in this space and always has a perspective. Personally, Brian, you've really been such an awesome, awesome individual along the journey of building the digital asset museum. I really appreciate you and all of the perspectives you've given along the way. And Santiago Serres, incredible artist and, Argentinian digital mixed media artist who explores chaos delving into the human mind through mixed techniques that combine biometric data, artificial intelligence, and generative art.
Beyond that, just an absolute incredible human being, heart of gold. So I'm really stoked now that, we are here together to really discuss how to build an artistic practice that can lead to having success and being able to be a full time artist, as all three of you are. So, diving into that, again, welcome. How's everybody doing? Doing doing great. Fantastic. We'll start off we'll start off the talk. We'll basically kinda go around and, discuss everybody's takes on really the, you know, the general talk. It's kind of a broad building a successful artistic practice is kind of broad, but I wanna really start off if we're speaking to somebody who's just starting out. What does it take to build a successful artistic practice? Where do you even begin? Let's start with Anna Maria Caballero. Again, welcome. Oh, I don't think we can hear you, actually.
Hold on. Let me see if I can adjust your audio on my end. Might need to edit your mic settings. We'll get that. There we go.
Speaker 1 Yes. Can you hear me?
Speaker 11 Yes. We can hear you clear. How are you?
Speaker 1 Perfect. Or should I put the headphone on?
Speaker 11 Oh, no. It's all good. Sounds crystal clear.
Speaker 1 Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. So thank you for for having me. Such a fan of Brian also and Saddis, so it's really wonderful to to be here altogether. I think the where I would start is defining what a successful artist means to you because I think that there's a wide gamut of what that could mean to somebody, and it's really important to understand why you want to be an artist or what it is that you want to accomplish as an artist and where you're headed, if it's publishing books, if it's exhibiting institutionally, if it's having commercial success, if it's, I don't know, being the kind of artist who has stores at airports. You know what I mean?
There's a whole wide gamut of of what an artist can look like, and I think starting out with a clear idea of what that means to you very personally, will help you map the path because I think it's just too too too ambiguous and ambitious to try to say, this is what you have to do to be a successful artist. Like, I could never I don't think honestly answer that question for someone I I don't know intimately.
Speaker 11 That's a really good point. So, like, it's it's about starting off by just saying what to me would mean I'm a successful artist and basically developing the definition for ourselves and then moving toward what that means is basically what you're saying and then allowing that to develop our next steps. Is that right?
Speaker 1 Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that you need to have a really long term plan. Of course, we're speaking within a web three setting where thing where time kind of bends and twists into these compressed capsules. But I think working in spans of five years is a really healthy pace. So, you know, where do wanna be in five years? Me, personally, what does that mean to me? And to really focus on that. And I think that within that planning or vision, you can also have an enjoyable experience, of getting there, which is important to me personally, you know, to to to know where you like, to to take care and honor yourself as a physical entity, as a parent potentially, as a spouse, as someone who perhaps wants to be a student still or a teacher or have a day job.
So in order to honor all the roles that we sustain as individuals, it has to be a very personal and, I think, paced outcome.
Speaker 11 That's such a well put answer. I I really appreciate that. Santiago, let's let's ask you the same question. Like, what do you feel building a successful artistic practice means to you?
Speaker 7 Okay. Well, first first of all, thank you so much for having me here among all these legends. Oh my god. I admire you guys. And answering to to your question and consider considering what Anna Anna said, that it's it's deeply personal. You know? Like, all the careers are different because it's it's really individual. But at the same time, I think that there are some common points that we should consider during this long term plan because the first thing everyone should know at the beginning is that it will be long, and you need to have patience. And I think that patience is the the the first one. You know? And and the other, which I think it's it's important, at at least it was to me during the first years, is is try to find your discipline. You know?
Like, try to find how you can manage your emotions with with your work and use it to find a kind of, let's say, happy place, you know, where you can put all your emotions or all what you feel into into something. And that is also deeply related with the idea of find a kind of purpose. You know? Like, what's the reason? Why why you want to to do it? Because, I mean, that will have you all the energy and all the fuel you will need during this this long term plan. You know?
Speaker 11 Absolutely. Like, I think back to what Anna said as well, like because it is such a broad topic of discussion. It really is our own definition of what we're deciding is success. Because if you constantly are looking to the next person to kind of define it for you, it's always gonna be a never ending chase. You're kind of like chasing your own tail in some way because it's always gonna be that somebody else is in a bigger museum or in a bigger publication or in a bigger thing. And instead, it's it's our own journey, I believe, that we're on that everybody else gets to witness. It's our own, like, personal sort of experience that everybody else is getting to see how it's unfolding. We're kind of after our own heart, really, to understand in our own heart what it is that we really are attempting to accomplish and convey to the world.
And I think through art, you're conveying and allowing other people to step into who you are, and, really, it's almost like a reflection in some way. People are seeing your work, and they're looking at it. It's almost like a mirror. And when you feel the resonation of another artist's work, it's because you're on that same vibration as they are in that moment and what they created, and it resonates with your heart, I think. So I think that's a really, really cool way you put it as well, Santiago. Santiago. I'm curious how you, Brian, feel about the topic building a successful artistic practice. Maybe it's easier to ask instead of what that looks like to you, what does it not look like?
Speaker 13 That's that's a harder way of asking
Speaker 13 No. I well, I mean, kind of thinking on both of their answers. Also, thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Their I their point, which is extremely important, is figure out who you are and why you're doing it. And then the next step after that is defining yourself for others, which I think is one of the first steps you gotta take in this space is kind of figuring out your introduction, figuring out your elevator pitch. Because usually, you're gonna meet a lot of people in this space, and you have a handshake and all of, like, ten seconds to tell them what you do. And you have to, you know, fit you know, at the beginning of the show, you read off our bios. That's us doing the work as an artist to put ourselves out there and kinda define ourselves, tell people what tools you use, your background, all that other stuff.
I think that's the first step. And then once you figure that out, then you build a website and you introduce yourself in that sense. And then you kind of have your business your digital business card that you can present yourself with. And then the artwork you put out all adds to this, you know, elevator pitch background bio world that you're building. And, I mean, I'm kind of getting into this idea of, like, branding ourselves, and that's really tough for a new artist to decide what they want to be. I mean, you know, when you go to art school, the first year, they usually put you in this, like, year of you do every type of art and then make sure that you wanna do this path for the next three years of that college.
And so especially new artists that are kind of defining themselves, you don't necessarily have to say, this is who I am, and I'm gonna stick to it. You can define yourself as I'm an experimental artist that has a background in this, and I'm gonna try and play in these type of things, but still putting that out there in a way that when you want to present yourself, you kind of know what to say other than just saying, yeah. You know, An artist and I kinda you know, I make some stuff I don't really know what I'm doing. You have to be a little more professional, I guess.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I think that you're basically, when you're discussing branding, it's like your own way of letting everyone know who you really are. But even reading your bios, it's it's just basically a scratch of the surface of really understanding. It's about discussing what you've accomplished or what kind of work you make. But as artists, we're all doing something much deeper than just the explanation of what we've done and accomplished or the the medium in which we work. I think a cool question to ask is how you feel your work is impacting people, and how do you think about that process when you go down a new path for maybe you're creating a new project. What do you think about as an artist? Is it something that is just you're just being guided all along the way and it kind of pulls you along?
Or do you have certain things that you kind of think through? Like, Anna, I'd love to start with you and ask how you feel about when you go down the route of creating something new or you're being called to creating a new project. How are you thinking about that process yourself? Is there, like, a checklist you go through of ways that you're looking to express? Or what is what are the steps for you personally when you begin expressing something new from your heart?
Speaker 1 So in my writing and in my in my artistic practice, I'm very much conscientious of place. Where am I showing, and what what is the context? For example, I have a show opening in January in Madrid where I live in Spain. And when I was invited to to present it, I immediately said I haven't really done anything with my book in Spanish. I really wanna do something with my book in Spanish, and the gallerist was like, great. Let's do something. And so I took advantage of the fact that I had a a book of poetry in Spanish that because of the hegemony of the English language, I hadn't really had an opportunity to present in other contexts. So that was something that that just made sense to me. And then the next kind of exhibition that I have is gonna be in Belgium, and it's the one year anniversary of a performance that I gave in Venice.
So I wanted to go back to that performance in Venice, which was a trilingual reading, and also tie it into the fact that I will be exhibiting in Brussels, you know, the the capital of the EU where so many languages collide, and I could really, you know, share different languages without thinking that it's going to be exclusive and people are gonna be left out. So it really has a lot to do with what I want to do paired with where I am. So, you know, I want to share my work in Spanish. I wanna share work in other languages. I wanna honor something that happened in the past. You know, I sometimes really, I'm not such a fan of how quickly things move forward and how things are just kind of left behind when they really matter, and they were really a moment in time that that we worked a lot on.
And so I'm really happy to go back and bring them to the present. And so if I can have that opportunity, I'm I'm kind of, you know, like a hawk. It's like, okay. This is a great chance to to bring back this moment that meant so much to me. So it's a context of what I wanna present as an artist, a combination, sorry, and where and where.
Speaker 11 Very interesting. So it's not again, this kind of draws back to the main the beginning, how this is not something that you know, you don't look into a book how to become an artist, and it's like step one, do this. Step two, do this. It's not like that. It's not like building a a machine or building a, you know, a a certain type of business. So it's more complex, basically. But I
Speaker 1 think that I just I'm very clear on what I wanna do as an artist in general. Like, I I want to share my poetry. I wanna present new opportunities for poetry. I wanna present poetry in surprising ways. I wanna present poetry as fine art. And so since that is not really into question, if that makes sense, it's more a context of more a matter of where am I and what do I want to share in this particular setting.
Speaker 11 I love that. I think that that's great guidance for anyone listening who you know, when you're building a project, it's about thinking about the context. I think a lot of context gets lost in the x feed in many ways when we're sharing stuff. Sometimes we don't always have the most contextualization happening, and things are kind of all over the place. So when making new projects, how do you feel that you're how do you best contextualize what you're working on? Is it solely just through writing about it, or is it solely through just sharing it in a certain way? Like, where does an artist go for that type of guidance? Is it just something you have to trial and error? And we can open this up to everyone as far as, like, no need to, like, round robin. But if and if you wanna in interject, please do.
But I'm curious, like, how you all feel about the contextualization of your own work and if you feel like there is things that fall through the cracks with dealing with the x algorithm.
Speaker 7 yes. We lost many things using, I mean, the the the x algorithm. But the idea, in in my opinion, is try to focus on how you can keep your context alive and how you can make that registry. Because at the end, it's what make the connect the connection with the collector or the spectator even more more powerful. You know? Like, Twitter, it it's like a an sneak peek. You know? And then you can dig into the rabbit hole and present all all your work. In in my opinion, I try to document everything during the the production. For example, in what I call, like, proof of craft, which are, like, presentation that shows all the process, all the idea, where the idea comes from because that's something really important. Like, the what what's the creative trigger of the idea because we always share only the idea and the and the result.
You know? But what's behind of that, it's it's, in my opinion, where the essence of the work lives. You know? Like and in terms of of a kind of some words for the the the artist who are just starting in in this career, it's like, try to document everything, but at the same time, try to put your identity into into your work. And how to do that, it's just follow your your intuition. You know? Like, in my case, I tried to offer something deeper than than the artwork. You know? It's like try to to offer a pause or or a kind of space where people just can lost into into the piece and try to reflect into something and try to reconnect with themselves. So that's really important with the identity and what Brian was talking about before, like, also with the branding because that is your purpose.
Like, what you will offer for the spectator and where is based also the the spectator. Because, for example, like, if I try to express something that is deeply connected, for example, with Argentina and many people of the the of the space don't don't reside here, it will be more difficult to to explain, you know, because it's it's a diff completely different language.
Speaker 11 Understood. Yeah. That makes that's very good, the way you're putting that. I think that the way so you're basically saying, like, you're following your intuition. You're pouring your heart into the way that you're explaining, but you understand that there will be things that are lost. It's just not about it's not about trying to make someone fully understand something. It's more about somebody will resonate by you explaining it the best that you can and that there's places people will resonate more. But also at the same time, like, it's I feel like there it's something out of our control in a sense trying to fully contextualize what we're working on in the realm of a digital business. But when we're in person and we're able to control things in more of a context like Anna was discussing, I think that it allows us to maybe connect with people more.
But I guess that's the challenge is we're trading off a a scalable way of sharing something with people with the digital realm to having something in person and maybe being able to connect with somebody more in a more centralized location. I I suppose the question that I really want to delve into is for somebody who's new and listening that maybe they're still in the emerging phase and they're they haven't done exhibitions, but they're still finding their own voice. What is the best practice in your opinion to get there get yourself out there in front of people in order to become more well known and successful? Do you prescribe to any sort of specific way of doing so? Is it a networking opportunity? And how do we use the tools that we have, which really is x mostly, in order to accomplish that.
Speaker 13 Yeah. I mean, kind of adding on what Santiago said, showing your process. I think that's one of the things that helped my work connect early on was when I did a drop, I broke down, like, the idea from storyboard to production and, like, showed how I got from a to z. That became both marketing. Each one of those things is content that people are interested in because people love seeing how things are created and why you're making your art. And it also became, like, a proof of work, which is becoming more important now with AI to say, like, here's my here's my receipts, essentially. I think those type of things do really well. And, you know, we have to play to x's strengths. You know, there's less and less every day on there. But one thing it does well is if there's something that is visually connecting with folks, it gets shared a lot, and that ripples.
And a couple of those people will click the link and dive deeper and maybe collect and like your stuff. But it really you know, it's content. And as an artist, we're content creators. It's an annoying term to use. But we we have access to infinite amount of content, whether it's final pieces, whether it's showing them in the context of real life spaces, whether it's talking about why we made them, whether it's collectors collecting it and sharing it. I mean, Anna's piece at Basil, I saw all over the timeline. I collected one. I thought it was a great project. But because there was a thousand of them, it was all over the timeline, and everybody kind of got to see it even though we weren't in Miami in that physical space. And that's the power of x.
And I think, you know, tapping into that ability is, you know, emerging artists, I love to collect them, and I find them because somebody else shared their work usually, or they had a piece that got retweeted, and, like, that's how we find it. And that's how every collector finds it unless, you know, unless you're in this, like, very narrow, like, gallery path. And the beauty of our space is that anybody can get a moment in the sun. And I think your only way you're gonna get that is by really building on your marketing and talking about the work. Even though a lot of artists are introverted, this career path favors the extroverted.
Speaker 11 You know, as on the concept of being a content creator and being extroverted and putting yourself out there, where is the line between doing that and pouring yourself in in that right way, but then the line between there and burnout? Like, I know a lot of people sometimes feel like you have to juggle a lot of different things as an artist in the digital realm. It's not always just about focusing on the work. You're also focusing on the marketing. You're focusing on the am I posting enough? Am I saying GM? Am I participating? Am I missing stuff? How do you all deal with that as artists in this digital realm? How do you avoid the burnout while still continuing your discipline? And I'd love to direct that question first at you, Anna, because I feel you've done so well. You're so you're very omnipresent on the timeline.
You're also in many different exhibitions. You've had so much success, and I'm curious how you view the topic of burnout for artists working in this digital world.
Speaker 1 You know, I really do think it's kind of on how you look at it. If if you're really excited to share your work and, you know, agree that with yourself sort of internally that not every post is a coup, like, you're not gonna take over the world with everything that you put out there, then I think you're pretty much in good shape to share your work and just kind of swallow this the the outcome. Right? And I agree with Brian. Like, we are in a way content creators. And so for me, how I negotiate that is that I make sure that I put out, you know, the full extent of what went into each work, the thought process behind it, understanding that probably very few people are actually going to read it, but I put it out there. It's out there. If you wanna know, it's out there.
It's also my website. I'll link my website. And then, of course, you have the little pills that you pop out that are, you know, the the GM type post that people actually read. And it's not just a Twitter disease. It's general. And I think also for me, it's important to be on other platforms because, again, going back to that first comment on what it means to be successful. So for me, I know that I want to share my work within the traditional publishing realm as well, And I know that they're not on Twitter. Basically, there was a mass exodus when Trump won the second term, and everyone's either on Blue Sky or some on LinkedIn and some on Instagram. And so I make sure that I also, share whatever I put on Twitter on these platforms because that's where the editors are. You know?
That's where, the reviewers for book reviews are, curators for certain exhibitions. So for me, yes, it's really exciting, of course, when something sells, and that's really important. But it's also important for me to publish in traditional literary establishments. So I guess with burnout, it has to do, I think, sometimes when you put things out and they don't get the reaction that you're hoping. And so you feel like of course, if you're putting stuff out and it's, like, going marvelously, well, then everyone's happy. But if you're doing all this work and then there's no expected result, that's really when I think burnout might happen. So if you have that expectation in check and yet there's just a commitment with the self to put out the work that you believe in, I know it's easier said than done than done, certainly, then I think that there's a different approach to putting it out.
It's more just like, I don't know, like, brushing your teeth. Like, you you just have to do it. Right? You just do it because it's it's what you wanna do to be a healthy artist. Share your work. If you keep it under your bed, no one's gonna see it. And so that, I think, me, is the way that you tackle burnout because you do have to do a lot as an artist. There's no going around that fact.
Speaker 11 Very, very well put. I love that you're again, not there's not a prescription of exactly a, c, d, what to do. It's really about looking at the situation and saying, like, well, what is my expectation? Like, if you post with the expectation that every post you make has to go viral, inevitably, the weight of not going viral, however many times that when you post, would maybe drive you to Never. I've
Speaker 11 Well and that's then to say, like, if you've never gone viral, I look at you as someone who's had massive success, and you're revered among everyone I respect. So, you know, you don't need to go viral, really. You you can have the people who respect you noticing what you're doing and supporting you and championing you. So it's not about needing to get all the likes and engagement and love on socials. It's, like you're saying, putting it out there because, okay, now it's out there. Whether it gets one like or a thousand, it's out there, and that's that's now I've done my part just like brushing my teeth. So it's done. Now we have to do it, and we do it. So it's not about trying to do less or growth hack it as much as it is just realizing this is what's required.
It's posting fairly consistently, sharing the process, sharing what's in your heart about what you're building without the expectation then of needing it to be a, b, c, d, or x, y, z. Santiago, I wanna ask you about this same concept. How do you view burnout in the sense of, you know, posting? Is it about a consistency thing, do you think, to be successful in this space? Do you have to post all the time? What is your take on the topic?
Speaker 7 Okay. Interesting question. To be honest, in my opinion, the burnout, it's something that all of us should experiment once in a lifetime just to understand who we are. Because in those moments of this aspiration, and this is, again, my my personal case, it that was the moment when my career changed. I mean, this all this new framework, which is, like, generative emotions started after a burnout. So that's why I think it sometimes, it's useful to find our way to to go back a little, just take a pause, and start again and put the start the game again. So, also, it's like with the Twitter and with the algorithm and the social network. And all that stuff. I think it's important to be present, but also have a balance. Because at the same times, you need to be there, but you need to do some work to be there before.
So it's better, in my opinion, if you put all that energy into the process, into your work, into the idea, and then just try to found to to find some consistency to be on on Twitter. I don't know. Maybe one post, two post per day, or something. But just to say, hi. I'm here. I'm working. That's that's interesting. But I really like what Anna said about try to find that that balance between what is, like, web two and web three. Because that's a really cool advice to someone who is studying. Because, I mean, like, web three, it's really powerful, and it's really interesting. But at the same time, you can use it to build your name in web two, and that will make your career, like, grow, if you want to say it like that.
And that will help will help at the same time your web three career because you will grow because you got some exhibitions, and you will you are winning some some, like, prices. You know? And it's interesting to find that because it's not all about web three or all about web two. It's all about your career and what kind of artist you want to be. You know? Because maybe you can put too many effort on your communication, but if your work does doesn't have your your essence and your and your mind on it, I don't know if if it will help you a lot. You know? And at the same time, I think we this is something hard to understand something sometimes. But being a full time artist, it's running a business too. You know? Because you need to have your administration.
You need to have your your, like, business task done and and all those those things which are, yes, are really boring, but at the same time, will keep you organized and will keep will keep you grow as a professional. I mean, if if we start paying attention to most of the bigger names in space and in the art world too, it's like they understand how to to play this this game, you know, how to build a brand and how to to build powerful work that fits the the brand. And in my opinion, it's something that we maybe should start trying to change the meaning because we always associate a brand to something which is really, really bad and try to conquer the world. And it's like, yeah. Maybe. Corporations, if you want. But you are not a corporation. You are an artist.
So do your work, do your job, and you will grow. And, yeah, it will be hard. But at the same time, you need to be conscious of those of these things because if you if we get lost into our emotions, you know, or day by day emotions where when you drop a tweet and no one's like it and you start saying like, okay. That's not cool. But we need to find a way to manage our emotions and also understand that opposed, it's just opposed, and alike, it's just dopamine to our mind. That's all. So when you understand that kind of logic, you can move, like, easier.
Speaker 11 Wow. Golden information. Absolutely golden. I think that people listening can really just, like, take a breath and just be like, okay. Like, it's alright if I'm not getting a million likes on every single thing I do or, it's okay. Like, really, what matters most is the work, which is really what you're saying is the impact we're making in our field through the work. Because often, I believe too, the work does most of the heavy lifting. Because if you're focused on just saying GM so you can get a 100 likes and 50 replies, well, just saying GM doesn't really advance or impact our space and move it forward. It creates, you know, a sense of belonging, but it's not doing the work that actually involves us, like, pushing our practice forward, which in the end, I feel ends up actually having more reach.
And, you know, treating this like a business is a you know, if you were to start from scratch, if you have the knowledge of how to build your artistic practice as a business, you'd probably treat it differently than, you know, if you're just, like, making art here and there, posting here and there. So I think that that's a big takeaway for me personally and hopefully for many people listening too that, like, you're treating this as a business, but it's not just that. Right? It's it's about the inner journey and also sharing and being able to reflect what it is that you're doing, putting it out there for people to also resonate with. But then again, touching back to the beginning, how Anna was mentioning the five year horizon. Is it often that you think in long term time horizons as an artist?
And how do you balance the long term time horizon with the short term? Santiago, if you'd want to riff on that, and then I'd love to hear from the other panelists as well.
Speaker 7 Well, in my case, what I do every year, it's at the end of the year. Like, I used to take two week two weeks off, the last two weeks of of December and try to retire of everything. No computer. No cell phone. No no anything. And just start writing out writing down what I want and start just planning my my year. And every five years, I did the same, but with the with the long term idea. I mean, are not writing on on its own. You know? It's like just some guidance that I would like to follow during the year and what I want to to reach. But, also, at the same time, you need to be open, like, open mind because that could change. And I I mean, like, that's happened to me, like, the last year.
And I was planning something during the year, and in a moment, I I got accepted in a in a residency and was like, okay. I need to change everything and just put my my head on on this. So it's just to find a balance always and also negotiate with yourself because sometimes your mind wants to go faster than your hands, and that is something that you should pay attention. Because that kind of burnout are the worst because at the end, you don't know what you wanna do. And then you get lost in inside your own career, and it's a tricky, tricky place to to get out.
Speaker 13 Yeah. No. I think that there there's a few things there. I think well, burnout I feel like I've been in a constant state of burnout for, like, five years now. So I I feel like I'm not a great, like, therapist for how to fix it. But I do think the way I get around it is, you know, I have, like, ADHD. And so, usually, when I feel burnt out, it's because I have too many things on my to do list at the same time. And so what I do is I make a spreadsheet. I say, okay. This is due here. This is due here. This is due here. And you start knocking that out, and that alleviates it. And if you get into, like, a creative burnout and you can't think of ideas, I usually try to educate myself. I learn new tools.
I learn tutorials on things, and that usually you know, I'm feeding inward as opposed to, like, pulling outward. And that usually solves the problem a little bit because that you learn these new things. You go, oh, I could use that to do this. And so I I find that that usually helps. And then in terms of planning ahead, I wouldn't say I've ever planned more than a year ahead even though it's nice to have a five year outlook, and I have lofty goals of, like, where I wanna be in life in years to come. But, like, in terms of my list of to dos, I try to keep it within the next couple months. And then, like, maybe a year from now, I'm thinking, oh, maybe I'll do a gallery show in a year. What would that be?
And then, you know, thinking on that, but not actually acting on it until then because, like Santiago said, a lot of things happen in the space. Sometimes it's good, and you get pulled into better things. And a lot of times you work on projects that just never materialize because the platform disappears or all these other things. And so it's risky to plan too far ahead because the space is constantly shifting. But if if the idea that you have is good and not tied to that specific thing, you can repurpose it elsewhere. But that's usually where my mind's at is like, okay. Here's the things at hand. Right now, the way I've structured my year is experimental. And so I go, okay. I wanna have five pieces based on this theme in two months. And then I just try and make a piece every couple weeks, and then I just kinda tinker those throughout that time.
And that that's a plan that I made that kind of caters to my own creative needs. But I think for a lot of artists, what it is gonna be is this platform reached out for a drop. You gotta figure out something for that. This platform or gallery reached out for a little show. You gotta think of something for that. And you just have to kind of, like, put these things into a planner and really knock it out. And if you feel overwhelmed, it's probably because you just need to, like, sit down and make a checklist and knock things out one at a time to get there.
Speaker 11 Anna, what is your take on the on the topic of, you know, initially mentioning that, like, a longer time horizon as an artist and how that ties into elevating your practice and deepening it over time. Do you focus how do you balance between the short term and the long term?
Speaker 1 So book publishing has really long horizons, so that helps me to think really far in advance. I already know what books I'm publishing in 2027, for example, just because I have to have the material ready by mid twenty twenty six in order for the pub date in 2027 to be met. So that always helps me I mean, quote, unquote, helps me. It also stresses, you know, the hell out of me. But it it's it it helps you think far in advance. And I've also, as an artist, decided that I'm shying away from the drop mechanism because it was something that I didn't feel I don't know. It was just it was really stressful. It really makes you a slave to social media, and it sucked all my energy away in a way that wasn't honoring the other parts of my life.
So, you know, I'm okay with having inventory, for for lack of a better word, out in the world, pieces that I'm proud of and that are available and that don't sell out overnight. But this twenty four hour sellout drop or it's a failure mentality for me is something that I'm just not really a fan of anymore. I think that it was something that I had to do at a given moment when I was starting out, and it was important actually within that route. But I think it's something that I I can not do anymore, and I'm just it's been a big change for me to to think of projects without that sort of drop dead literally date. So for me to think long term, those two things help the fact that I want to publish books, and it's really important to me to publish books.
It's really what I live for, and that those require these insane sort of, you know, looking forward horizons. And then that immediacy of the web three to turn away from it a little bit has also helped me, retain some sanity and headspace. Another thing I'll say is that I think that, you know, as humans, as artists, we have cycles. And there are cycles, for example, for me personally, where I'm not always writing a book. I'm not always deep in the writing of a book. There's times when I'm not. And those times, I'm usually, you know, sort of more posty. Like, oh, I wanna do more posts, or I wanna, you know, do a reading or a performance. I have energy for that. So I think that that's also something that we can listen to without feeling that we need to be doing everything at once.
And, you know, it's really intense to be creating art. It's really intense to be writing a book. And it's all consuming, and it's a different way of navigating the the world and, like, your day to day. So when you're not in that phase, maybe that's when you do your, you know, more concerted marketing pushes or or or plan to be at more events and and do that kind of of energy sort of expenditure. So, yeah, that's how I I don't know if I even answered your question, but that's what came.
Speaker 11 No. Absolutely. That this is fantastic. I think this is so beneficial for those listening because I think that often as artists and creators on the emerging side, I I mean, you're constantly wondering how these other people within the space that you look up to, how do they think about this stuff? And and they're like, we discussed initially, there is no real, like, cut and dry way to do things in this space. It is a personal journey that then reflects to the world, and it's very vulnerable to work on something and, pour your heart into your craft and then share it with the world. And then, hopefully, it gets engagement. And if it doesn't, then it kinda like you know? But I think that there's a lot of balance struck from this conversation where we can breathe easy knowing that it's okay if we're not getting crazy engagement, or it's okay if, you know, things aren't just blowing up on social media.
It's not about that. Like, focusing on the artistic practice and how to deepen it and become successful, ultimately, it's the signal I'm getting is involving the self reflective journey of, okay, like, balancing the short term and long term, having a long term horizon of understanding, like, it's not an overnight game. We're doing this for the long term. We're doing this for ultimately ourselves to express what's in our heart and what really is the thing in us that we feel should flow outwards to the world through our work and our craft and focusing on impacting our craft, not just impacting the timeline. So I wanna ask questions again on that. The impacts that we make on our own practice, what are the focuses for you all when it comes to thinking about your own practice? Like, the topic of the talk again is how to have a successful artistic practice.
And in that, what are the ways that you personally deepen your artistic practice? And what disciplines does that involve for you? I'd love to ask you again, Anna, and then share to, the other panelists as well.
Speaker 1 Sure. So I think that, you know when you're doing good work, you know in your heart when you're doing it. And if you're doing good work, I think that's ultimately very satisfying. You know, burnout, I do think, comes from working hard and not getting the expected results. So if you have your expectations in check, it can really help, reduce burnout. You know, I do think there's, of of course, there's a exhaustion factor, just a physical exhaustion factor that will come no matter what, and that has to do with pacing. I think that doing more than one project per month, that's already a lot. But even more than that, I think, is madness. There's just no way to effectively communicate it, and I think you're only going to dilute the work you're doing because it just it's gonna be, like, disposable almost.
And then for me, actually, something that I would really recommend is I've it happened naturally, but I've I've realized how helpful it's been to have a few series. So I have sort of my sculptural series, right, that are rooted in my performances. And so I know that I have sort of this thought process that I put a lot into, this production that I put a lot into, and that if opportunities arise with enough time, I'm able to respond in a way that honors the work I wanna do. I've got, for example, the book sculptures that I create, which are these one of one books that have only one poem in them. And, again, a lot of thought went into them. I have a lot of literature about them and the production, a lot of trial and error as well.
But now that there's a flow, again, I can respond when opportunities arise. And then you're communicating these projects and bringing them forward again. Right? And there's a mission, and there's a theme at the core of them that is important to you. So I think having a few series that allow you to respond to opportunities and to recommunicate a message that's important to you is really helpful as an artist, like, a practical matter because it's very hard to perfect, like, the production of something, delivery, the timing. All that is is very complicated. And to just do it once and then never again, you know, it really feels that can, I think, lead to exhaustion? But if you repeat it, you know, obviously, there's there's a limit to to how much you do that, I think.
But if you if you're able to call upon these series, I think it can really help, deliver work that you're proud of and respond in time to opportunities.
Speaker 11 Very well put. Go ahead, Santiago.
Speaker 7 That's that's really interesting because that's what I try or or learn to to do during after the the now, like, structuring my my career, like, with different stages or or layers. You know? Like, you got your practice. Okay. What's what made your makes your practice? Okay. This discipline, I don't know, neuroscience, psychology, and technology, AI code, whatever. Okay. That's cool. And after that, okay, which framework would you work? Like, because each framework In my case, I I got different tools or different techniques per per each one. So I decide I don't know. Maybe I will play with generative emotions, which is all done with AI technology and generative. Okay. Or maybe I want to play I don't know. In this case, I it will be tomorrow, but I'm opening a new framework which is based on on quantum technologies, mix it with with AI to analyze, like, the consciousness.
And it's like, okay. Are, like, different worlds where you can play into it? And then each framework has them their series. So I don't know. You you did you do, like, maybe six series in two years just for one framework. And that allows you to structure your your production. You will need it. Like, it's it's in my opinion, that's key. I learned that because I came from the advertising and production world, and it's really helpful. So it's I noticed something last week, I think, which is, like, I was talking with my with my wife about the career and and everything. She's an artist too. And I was saying to her, like, I noticed that right now, what I'm doing right now has a part of something that I really love during all my life. I don't know.
I I got a moment in my life which I was really, really interesting in in the mind and the neuroscience and all that stuff, so it has a part of it. This this framework, for example, started after I burn out. So I started therapy. So it's a there's a lot of psychology because I I get really interested of that. And there's also I don't know. I'm obsessed with technology since I got, like, I don't know, ten years. So there's a lot of technology into it. So you can play with things that you love during all your life. It's just be open and try to catch the those insights. You know? And there's when intuitions enter the game. You need to feel your heart. You know. When something is good, you know that.
Sometimes you try to to say to your mind, like, shut up, but you know that because you feel it, like, in your stomach, you know, it's like it's it's something which is really beautiful, but you need to be open and with your mind, like, clear to find those insights.
Speaker 11 Very well put. And, again, touches back on how the the burnout actually can lead us in the right direction. You know? Sometimes we're pouring our heart in, and we end up then feeling, like, overwhelmed. But in reality, we're being pushed in the right direction all along. And that's a pretty beautiful part of the process. Again, touching back on how it is a personal journey, and it's a very vulnerable thing to be sharing with the world. But it's, you know, like, the story of the artist's growth and journey, and our practice is kind of, like, on display for everyone to judge and think about and and discuss. And I think that it's just a really beautiful way that you put it, how you're you're realizing that it's all tied together.
And I really respect that, and I think that that's an amazing part of the the journey is to realize, like, this is all kind of making sense even among the times that we might feel like it's not. It's being we're being guided in the way that we're following our journey. We're following our heart on the journey, and it ends up making us really elevating ourselves and our souls and creating even better work, deepening our practice even more, and deepening our craft, which ultimately, I believe, is the whole goal. I'd love to hear from, you, Brian, as well on, just as a an ending note, as we wrap up here. What do you think is one thing that we can give to someone listening who would who's on the journey of creating and on the journey of deepening their practice?
What can we say to them in order to continue to push them forward?
Speaker 13 I think one of the things that I think about a lot when I create work in this space is if what is what I'm creating able to educate people from outside the space about what is interesting and unique about web three blockchain digital art, you know, creating work that can't be created elsewhere. And that itself is context and content that they can use, but, like, whether it's on chain or generative or any of these things, you know, why why are you creating the art for this medium? And if if so, how do you explain that in a way that brings more people into the fold?
Speaker 11 Very, very well put. Like, your the way that all of you I think that the the common theme among all of you is that you're following your heart to know what to do, which ends up bringing everything together. It's kind of like the unseen and unknown way of, you know like, as I continue to study and think about what process could somebody go through in order to have success as an artist, I keep coming back to this idea and concept that there is no process. It's really about just thinking, you know, what is the context of what it is that we're wanting to achieve? We want success as an artist. What does that even mean? And, ultimately, I feel that it comes back to thinking about, well, what are we trying to impart onto everyone else? How can we bring everybody else into the thing that we're building here?
It's like we're on this stage, and everyone else is watching. And it doesn't really matter at the end of the day what everyone else thinks. It really more so matters about are we deepening the practice ourself, and are we challenging ourself and also pushing ourself to go through the uncomfortable times in order to figure out more about ourselves so that we can continue to pour it back into the work and ultimately leave that impact and impression, while we're here. So, yeah, I think that this has been an incredible talk, and I really appreciate all of you spending the time today coming here, pouring your heart out, and sharing wisdom and sharing experience. And I hope that listeners have gleaned some amazing things from this talk. I can't wait to listen back to this. I feel there's a lot that, I wanna fully absorb.
And, overall, I'm just very appreciative of you all coming here and spending the time today. So thank you for, thank you for being here.
Speaker 1 Thank you. I wanna say you're an amazing moderator, just a natural. Think I you've done a great, great job. Yeah. Very, very good at, like, guiding us and repeating what's important, and I think it was really, really well done. So thank you. There's a lot of thought I know that goes into planning such a talk.
Speaker 11 That really means a lot to me. Thank you so much. Every day, I'm learning. So it's always a process, but that really does mean a lot. Thank you so much. I appreciate you all. I'm stoked for the next talk. It looks like we did spill over a tiny bit, so we will wrap this one. Thank you guys again, and I look forward to if there's any more panels with I believe that Brian is on a few more. Sarah's as well. Anna, I think this is the final one. But it's been so amazing having you, and I look forward to just staying in touch with all three of you guys as the journey continues to go to grow. It really is a pleasure. The pleasure is mine, and it really makes a big difference to share this information with people in this format. So thank you again.
Speaker 1 Good night, everyone. Thank you so much. See you. Bye bye. Ciao ciao.
Speaker 11 Bye. Alright. Such a good talk. Such a good talk. I do see we spilled over about a few minutes here. Let me make sure all of our speakers have the link to the next to join in to the backstage. I see we've got Ohmes in the backstage.
Speaker 11 Alright. We'll, make sure everybody's in the backstage here. We'll bring you on up. We'll take a quick break, and, we'll be right back. Alright. We've got 427 people watching from all over the world. I appreciate you being here. Again, this is day two of the Web three Summit, and our next talk is with an incredible panel. Super, super stoked on this. We have Ohmes. We have Medved, and we have Justin Gilani. This panel is on what drives collecting behavior. This is gonna be a super exciting one because I think this is one of the most, like, mystifying kind of talks where or mystifying topics where we don't really know what it is that makes people, drive to wanna collect things. And when we get to talk with collectors and curators, I think the insights that come from it are very, powerful.
We'll go ahead and take this quick break and, make sure everybody has their link to join, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 11 Hello, guys. Can you hear me?
Speaker 6 How's it going? Hey.
Speaker 11 What's up? Stoked to have you all here. I believe Matt might actually not be able to make it today. Matt matt madbed was also scheduled for this talk, but, he might join us midway. However, I'm super stoked for the talk to discuss, again, what drives collecting behavior. These are two people here today with us that I have ton of respect for, both who have incredible insights. So quick intros on, both of you guys. Ohmes is a collector since October 2020. He's developed discovery tool, organized and curated IRL exhibitions, one of which was very recent, and incredibly well done. I believe Justin as well had a hand in helping Matt run and being very successful. He's run workshops with artists, and he's done interviews as well as he's a big believer in the technology of, and what it has to offer creatives from all walks of life.
I think, though, also, Ohmes is really just one of the most genuine people that you'll meet in this space. He's not afraid to say what's on his mind and to say the thing that we're all thinking. And, also, he's one of the best and biggest supporters of artists and lifting up artists that I know. So I'm really, really grateful to have you with us again today. Justin Gilani, sorry, Justin. Justin Gilani. My apologies for if I'm miss saying that. But, Justin, ton of respect for you, man. I really have come across a lot of your content on the feed and on the timeline that is so genuine, so well put together, and really expressing the from a journalistic standpoint, really expressing a lot about the artists that are doing amazing things in this space, the museums doing amazing things in space, and offering a really fresh perspective.
So I'm really stoked to have you with us today. Justin's a curator from Art of the Millennium, AOTM. He's a collector and an arts advocate, and he has a lot of diverse experience across global businesses. So, yeah, I mean, you guys, these introductions, they barely scratched the surface of really who you guys are. I'm really stoked to have you here and stoked to dive into the conversation. So welcome, and thanks for being with us today.
Speaker 8 Thank you. Pleasure, man. Thanks for having us on.
Speaker 11 Of course. Of course. Pleasure is mine. So the panel is the topic of the panel is what drives collecting behavior. So this is a really incredible topic because anybody who's listening on who's an artist or a creator, it's kind of not always really clear what makes somebody want to collect. There's a lot of different things, and a lot of it's subconscious, I think, in many ways. So starting with you, Justin, I wanna ask, what do you feel is a main driver of wanting to collect, wanting to, you know, dive in, connect your wallet, and buy a digital artwork?
Speaker 6 You know, I think there's a couple different approaches. There's someone that just wants to consume, collect. They see something on the time line and something at the store, and it becomes impulsive. There's another type of collector too, and and, you know, maybe that's just, you know, you're picking up a couple things here and there. There's another collector too that maybe has been following an artist for a while. Is almost becomes like a patron, of that artist, becomes very interested in how the artist makes work, what the artist is up to from a project base. And then there's maybe a third type of of collector that believes in the entire ecosystem and in the technology and wants to collect and support it. I think there is a very, very, line. There's a line that's crossed.
I think, you know, when we look at people's wallets or we think of traditional collectors, when there there's so many works, that sort of makes you a collector versus just someone consuming a piece here and there. But we have seen in this space, I think, a lot of new types of behaviors. But I think these are some of the and there's more that we can explore, through this session, but these are some of the things. So one being someone that must have something. They see it. They need to buy it. Secondly, someone that wants to support an individual artist. And thirdly, someone who wants to sort of support or engage in the entire ecosystem.
Speaker 11 Really well put, honestly. That's those are three very clear buckets. Ohmes, I'm curious how you feel about the drivers of, really, what makes you feel compelled to collect an artist's work. And I love how Justin mentioned the impulse side. I feel like sometimes that is an incredibly very prominent reason why people collect is because maybe FOMO or the impulse of, like, okay. Like, this is here. This is now. I can collect it before the next person. So I'm curious your take on what really drives collecting behavior for you.
Speaker 8 I mean, for me, it's evolved. I I probably gone through every, like, stage in the spectrum that, you know, that I think collectors go through from, you know, collecting out of passion because you like the work and you just wanna own it, to following in for a variety of reasons. Could be because the artist is really hot right now. Could be because you think, you know, that it's a really good financial opportunity, so it's speculative. And then I think as as I matured as a collector, it's been a lot more about building relationships and supporting artists. Like, I think that's very unique to the space is the the kind of personal relationship you can forge with an artist. The way, you know, collecting becomes a way to support their their dream and to enable their dream and facilitate that. And so more recently, that's kind of how I've approached things.
So if I if I come across people I believe in for a variety of reasons or our values align or I really like their vision or I really I'm really into their work, then for me, will be a way to kind of support them and be a part of their journey.
Speaker 11 And in that way, how do you feel artists can have more collectors? Like, another way to ask that question is how do artists drive more attention, interest from collectors without really doing it in a way that makes them feel like they're sacrificing something? What's, like, an organic way, in your opinion, that artists can expand their collector base?
Speaker 8 It's tricky. It's a it's a tricky balance. Right? Because it it's marketing. Whatever way you wanna sugarcoat it, it is Right? But there's a fine line between marketing and, like, aggressive shilling. And so I think it's how you present yourself, how you present your story, sharing your process, sharing interesting things about your work, sharing interesting things about your vision, sharing your work on a regular basis. All of these things, I think, will catch the attention of people. I mean, at the end of the day, majority of discovery still takes place on on x on the timeline. Right? So it's it's a blessing and a curse. And and the positive thing about it is it gives artists opportunity to share visual content and written content. So they can include context with the with the images or videos or animations that they're sharing.
That for me is typically how I've come across new artists and then I've become curious. And then it then it becomes a case of just starting conversations with them and then also being receptive to that and and being kind of social in that sense, right, and being engaged in that sense. And, again, not aggressively shilling. Just being yourself, sharing your story, sharing your process. At least this for me, these are the things that really attract me to collect an artist's work.
Speaker 11 Justin, what do you think about that? Like, how do artists sell more, really putting it plainly? How do artists reach more collectors? Oh, I don't know if Justin might be frozen. Maybe it might be on my end. Can you guys hear me?
Speaker 11 I can hear you. Maybe. Justin, I know he did mention that he's in transit. Still very grateful to have him with us today, and I do appreciate his perspectives. When he pops back in, we will, touch back on him. Ohm's popping back to you, mentioning how, you know, when it comes to an artist expanding, they're obviously wanting to, you know, have more sales. Right? Have more success, blow up. But, you know, when it comes down to the marketing side, how do we differentiate between just driving speculation from more of a degenerate crowd to driving interest that's actually genuine interest from a collector who wants to champion that artist. And just a caveat to add on, if we're attracting more of the speculative side in this space, I find that it's very similar in May in ways to the video game industry, where video game will launch, and then they'll get a lot of flack from the same people who are supporting them.
In this space as well, if an artist launches and does something and it's successful, sometimes they actually start receiving lack from collectors because they're not doing something specific. Maybe it was a hyped launch that ends up going down in value and causes a conversation among collectors to basically say they should have done this, they should have done that. How does an artist have more success but attract in the right collector? And who is even the right collector for artists in your opinion?
Speaker 8 It's a very difficult it's very difficult. Right? I mean, you know, you can't really gatekeep who collects your work. So all you can do is put out you put out the work, you put out your personality. I think part of it that can help is being authentic, you know, expressing who you are on on the timeline or on all the touch points that you have, all the points where you interact with potential collectors. Because that, in a way, acts as its own filter. You know? And and I think it's good. I I think pandering is where you can get in trouble. Right? Right? If you try to please everyone and you try to you know, for example, there are a lot of you see a lot of these engagement posts like, oh, I've just I've just got a bunch of EAT or I've just got a bunch of Tesos.
Show me your work. Right? And it's I understand the the instinct for some artists to get in though to get in there and post and share. And that to me is automatically, like it's a risk. Right? Because you're putting yourself out there. You're kind of you're sending the message that you're really desperate to sell without without considering who you're selling to, and you're kind of falling for, like, one of the oldest tricks in the book. So it's things like that when I say con how you conduct yourself, how you express yourself on the time, and these things are one of the signals. But I think it's still very difficult. I can give you an example. I mean, like, there was an artist that had been doing really well on Tezos for a long time, and then they they came on to Ethereum, and they dropped their Genesis on SuperAir.
And there was a big bidding war between two collectors, high profile collectors. One of them won the piece, and, you know, it I think a lot of people noticed that because the collector that won the piece is quite influential. Next thing you know, like, the artist was dropping pieces. They were getting caught you know, they were getting bought out right away, and then he was getting it, like, harassed in DMs for more for more work. So, obviously, if you're put in a position like that and you you don't have the resolve to kind of set a limit and set boundaries on people, you can get in a lot of trouble. And I think in in their case, certain, we can say, collectors that ended up harassing him for work in that situation may not necessarily be the ideal collectors. They may not have been collecting those works for the right reasons.
Right? Because in a lot of cases, it was blind. They didn't even see the piece. They were just asking for a piece because they could see that the artist was was hot. So I think it really comes down to to how you conduct yourself, how you present your work, being unapologetic. Don't fall for the hottest trends. Like, I know open editions have their place, but be careful. Don't hop on every trend, especially when it's obvious that the people participating are doing it to speculate. You know? So there is a limit to what you can do as an artist. And I think, again, I said this yesterday when we had the talk. It's always a learning experience. Right? So you try things. You see how what the results are. You adjust. You try something else. You see what attracts the kind of collectors that that you wanna attract.
I mean, what's the right type of collector? Really, it's the type of collector I tend to think of values. You know? Do they align with my values? Do they see do they see the world in the same way I do? Do they do they understand my vision? Do they really appreciate my process and what I'm doing here, or are they or are they pretending to? Like, how genuine is that connection? Right? Because what I find is, in my experience as a collector, if I have a genuine bond with an artist, I'm there with them through thick and thin. I'm not gonna worry if their price goes down, if they do a drop that doesn't work out that, you know, financially, it might not be in my favor, I'll still be there for them. Right? So it comes down to really identifying authentic and genuine people and relationships and building from there.
Speaker 6 I think you're muted.
Speaker 11 Yeah. You're muted. Yeah. You're muted. Sorry about that. I think that brings the topic up on how we basically, the topic of curating your collectors from the artist standpoint. But, you know, to touch on the point of you know, don't jump on every trend. However, in open edition, if you know, back thinking back to the open edition trend back in, like, I believe, 2023, among the other times that there's been trends on the open editions. But when I think of, like, this trend where artists were doing open editions, they were selling like crazy. An artist I think of is Danjius, an artist I have ton of respect for. He when I interviewed him a while ago, we were discussing the open edition, and he made over $1,000,000 from that open edition.
But what it did, even though it put a lot of art out there and it could maybe make some people upset if, you know, it doesn't in instantly go to a bajillion eth, and then everyone's like, oh, I'm, you know, a generational wealth for every single person who bought. It did allow him to generate a lot of capital that then fuels his artistic journey for years ahead and allows you to fully create in a position of abundance as an artist because now you're financially secured for however much time. Now what is the balance there from your perspectives on an artist really creating an opportunity for a collector that they wanna collect the work they're driven to, not just for pure speculation, but also for long term.
How does an artist, in your opinion, navigate that fine line in order to drive interest and revenue for themselves while also avoiding putting themselves in the position of everybody becoming angry and the pitchforks coming out because, you know, thinking back to NES graphics open edition, for example, people were like, stop them in. Stop them in. I don't know if you guys were were there for that, but it was just people were buying so much. They were literally telling him to stop the mint. It was like a six minute, seven minute open edition. It's just kind of a silly kind of thing to think about, but I think that there is value for the artist in following a certain trend if it can generate them a lot of attention and awareness and, most importantly, revenue to fuel their journey.
But, of course, we don't want to only focus on how do we generate as much eth as possible, how do we create as much speculation as possible. So I wanna hear your guys' takes on that realm of conversation, and we can go over to Justin first. What do you what do you think about that?
Speaker 6 You know, historically, artists have not failed so much publicly in in public. You know, I talked to a lot of artists and under fail is not a bad word. It's one of those things where artists are creating things so at so much quantity so frequently that normally in the traditional art world, you'd have, like, a show once a year, twice a year. Then maybe you have one piece in, you know, at a art fair or a couple art fairs, but those one or two shows a year allowed you to create a body of work. So it was very much about creating a collection of works, having a thought process. We're in a new era here where it's a almost product design. So where you see artists, when I think of NASA, I think of some of these others that are artists, and they have a practice, and if there's a lot of depth to it.
But then there's these other things that happen. I think what an artist does need to do is be aware of these trends, be aware of these things, but stay true to their practice. And I would say, I even with Ness and some of these other ones where stop the men or this side or the other, I would say Ness hasn't seen he he still has greatest pieces and things are still still to come. There's a lot of three d artists that I love that it just wasn't the time. There were things like degenerative art with art blocks that was popular. Maybe that was because the collectors that were collecting it were more comfortable with collecting artworks that had traits and stats that were quantifiable. You didn't have to make much qualitative sort of judgment.
But what we're seeing now is a much more keen and much more I hate to use the word educated, but much more experienced sort of collector that knows what they want. I had a friend the other day. He's a football player, he talks about he's he used the whole year before he bought his first piece because he wanted to learn what he liked, who he liked, where it came from, and all these things. So we entered into a market where it was boom, boom, boom, and it was baseball cards, and it was stocks and and tokens and this, that, and the other. So I think for a lot of the creators, I would say they're listening today as you're thinking about your collector base. If something didn't work before, if something happened in 2022 or 2021 or 2023, it's 2026 in a couple weeks, what can you do now and and where is your your thesis?
And I would also say diversify, diversify, diversify. And that is to say that, yes, you can have amazing collectors and you can have amazing experience on the timeline. But as Om's showed in in Abu Dhabi, there's amazing audience that are interested in artists that are creating things digitally. We saw this, you know, a bit in in in Miami in Miami as well, and we see this all over. You know, even, I was with, Kim Assendorf in in Bangkok at the GOOTA Institute. Had created this experience. So I'm right now in Madrid, and, again, I apologize for dropping out a little bit earlier, but I just went and saw the solo collection. I mean, they did Mario Klingman at, Basel, and they have this amazing private collection. They're they're putting it with their traditional art. There were some really nice installations.
They they have historically, collected collectibles, like the, you know, all the different, you know, the figurines and and comics and stuff like this, and it evolved into collecting AI and collecting all this art. So what I would say to those artists that may have follow followed a trend, it's okay. It's okay. The market will correct itself. You will reinvent or figure out what your true voice was. And some artists were very lucky, and some artists were very lucky because I would say in my eye, and again, it's just my eye, they were very lucky to ride a wave, and no one should really compare themselves. I heard some of the artists earlier talking, and I think 2026 is a whole new frontier, and and OMZ and and the others, have really shown that there are new ways to present art, and there are new ways to collect art.
Speaker 11 Very articulate. You're an incredible speaker, by the way, Justin, I must say. Ohmes as well. Both of you guys are fantastic. But really epic points there. I love the idea of saying it's okay because it really is. I mean, we number one, we can't change what happened in the past. Number two, I think that it's powerful to fuel runway for an artist. Like you said, that they it's not that they got lucky. I'm not saying that. I'm saying more so that it was the right place, right time to launch something that could generate that type of excitement and revenue.
But then also, you know, the going back to the question of how do we, as collectors, look at this and say, you know, what what would we say to the artist in order to tread the line in the right way that we can generate interest and, momentum and excitement and the sprinkle of degeneracy potentially that allows us to infuse the liquidity, especially in a thin type of, liquidity situation, which many would consider the space to be in at the current moment, to be able to continue on and drive interest from collectors. So, bouncing back to Ohmes on that topic, do you feel that there is, like, a a certain sprinkle of degeneracy that still attracts you in as a serious long term collector, or do you feel that artists should more so focus on just really just, like, make your best work and let the rest fall into place outside of the marketing dynamics of it all?
Speaker 8 I mean, I I'm I'm still, you could say, purist in that sense where I I still think artists should just be themselves primarily focused on putting out the best work they can. Telling the story, I think that's very important. You know, I mean, again, you look at with in terms of the degeneracy aspect or, let's say, the formal aspect, I think that'll come when there's enough buzz around the work and when there's more demand than supply. Right? I mean, just the basic principle. And if you look recently in in last few months, there have been several releases that have sold out by artists that aren't, you know, very prominent on the timeline, that don't market themselves, that don't chill aggressively, but that have put out very, you you know, know, carefully considered, you know, strong work. And they've had support from platforms.
They've had support from, you know, curators and so on to help them market it, but not in a kind of degenerate way. In a in a in a very thoughtful way where really the concept and the narrative are at the forefront, and the work speaks for itself. And I think that's that's one of the things. I mean, the other aspect that at the end of the day, there still is herd mentality. Right? So when you see, let's say, high profile of collectors or you can call them influencer collectors buy into an artist series early on in the release, that'll drive a lot of the kind of degenerate behavior. Right? Because a lot of, let's say, less conf I don't wanna say, like, I would say less confident collectors, but I think that's still more of a question of confidence.
We'll dive in on the basis that, wow, this person has bought in from this. It must be really, you know, strong release or this artist must be something special. Right? But, again, at the root of it is the work. Right? There's no gimmicks. There's no, like, fancy tricks. It's just solid work and narrative and concept still at the root of it.
Speaker 6 Yeah. I will I will I will I will will answer that too. I think Oz is exactly right. That concept will survive. One of the things and the collectors that are listening, I look a lot about is, three things. One is the hand. What is the skill? How is it a painting? Is it a sculpture? Is it a digital work? Do they know the programming? Do they know if they're an AI using AI as an artwork, how are they using it? What's the skill? What's the hand? I then go into another space, which is the head. The head is is there a concept behind this work? Have they thought about it? Is there some sort of thesis there? Or even if maybe they didn't think about when they were making it, can they is there a concept or does it fit into their their bigger thing?
And then the last h is the heart. And the heart is a difficult one because it's life experiences. Can I feel? Can I hear? Can I see the life experience that this artist is trying to say to me or tell me? Sometimes I see a work and it has a lot of skill, but it has no heart, and it has maybe no concept, or maybe there's two out of three. Sometimes I see a work on the timeline and it's like no skill at all, and it's just so much hard or or this. So this is one great thing is an artist is creating their this is the other thing with artist. They're creating so many works every day because they're behind their computer. They're not limited to the amount of paint they have, the canvases they have.
This sort of framework also helps for them to edit and to decide what they release as well. But when you have the hand, the head, and the heart all singing together, that's a home run for me. And that's also as one is collecting too or thinking about collecting. Is there do they see some skill in there? Do they see some concept in there, and do they see some of this artist's heart? And I know both of you can say that you have artists that you collect, that you're keen on, that you're excited about because they they have these three things going for them.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I love that. I think that also for the artists listening, that really gives a great perspective. I think this talk in particular is one of the most important ones for artists to hear because often, we're kind of, like, from the creating side, you can get lost in just following what feels really right. But, you know, ultimately, thinking at these levels of, like, okay. Like, is am I demonstrating a unique craft through the way that I'm sharing here? Or, you know, like we touched on yesterday, is it a derivative of anything else? Is it just driven by trying to do what's popular in any given moment? But also then, what's the concept? Is it conceptually strong? And also, I think, probably most importantly, how much heart is in this work? Because collectors are collecting a piece of the artist in some way.
I think of it as, like I talked to this in the previous talk on how it's kind of like looking into a mirror in some way when you really resonate with the work because you see a part of yourself in it. So on that, I'm curious on, like, how much of the collecting process for you both involves feeling like you see yourself in the work and also feeling like you're collecting a part of that artist, or is it not really about that? Is it more about because it just resonates for whatever reason it does with you? Really touching on that from the perspective of, like, how does an artist really connect with the collector in the deepest way possible?
Speaker 6 Oh, I think Oh, this is a great example of this because I I see him being such a champ I like to use the word champion when I think of Olms. He's really is a champion of these artists. And I know that whether he he went into it blind, I think he has had some really meaningful relationships and and and and, you know, professional relationships with these artists and and helping guide them. So maybe, Omz, you can share a little bit about that and how that's happened for you.
Speaker 8 Yeah. No. Thank you, like, for the kind words. I think it it I don't think there's a set blueprint, to be honest. Like, with some some work, it's, like, really resonated on an emotional like, deeply emotional level. Some work, it's more stimulated me intellectually, and then, like, there's an also an emotional, you know, you know, response there as well. But, yeah, there is there is some there is always some kind of connection, whether it's intellectual, whether it's emotional. I think the, you know, the hand, the heart, the the head analogy is actually a perfect way to describe it. You know? So I can give you two examples. There was a one of one I I collected recently called becoming myself by ADHD. That to me is all emotion. Like, to the extent where, honestly, I'm not I'm not embarrassed to say this, like, I cried.
The first two or three times I experienced that work, I was, like, in tears, like, sobbing. Okay? That's how much it moved me. And this is at a time, you know, I mean, I ended up collecting the work for 2 ETH, which, relatively speaking, is a lot in this market. And it's more than I had spent on a one upon for a very long time. Plus, separately, just to add to that, I already had kind of a personal relationship with the artist. Like, we had already been kind of friends, DM ing, but that was a side to it. But that also actually just deepened my connection to the work Because it allowed me to collect something that really moved me emotionally, but it also allowed me to to collect something that I knew would support the artist's vision and their ability to continue to produce work in a very difficult environment.
So that's one example. Another example I'll give is a is an artist called James Bloom, who I've collected. I'm probably I'm not, again, not embarrassed to say this. I'm probably James' biggest collector, and I connected with him on a a collection he dropped a couple years ago called Burner, which took, like, several months to mint out, by the way. I collected one piece initially. I minted minted one piece initially, and then he DM me, and then we had a conversation. And and something clicked in that conversation. This is why I talk about values and vision and process. Once I got to know James and I got to know his vision and I got to know his approach to things, I was like, I I wanna wanna support this guy in any way I can. I bought into his work. And, also, every work that he's produced, I bought into conceptually.
I bought into aesthetically. I bought into emotionally. They've moved me in different ways. I mean, all of that to say that from an artist perspective, there's no blueprint. My my my thing is be authentic. Be yourself. Put out your signal. You attract like minded people who share your vision and values. And that, for me, is the only way to really optimize your collective base. It's the only way you can.
Speaker 6 And I think to that point too, even thinking about ADHD's his the piece that you collected, Olm, is, like, that is a piece that encompasses all of those things. I actually missed your part about values, vision, and process. But if we think about process, we think about hand. If we think about vision, we think about head. And if we think about values, we think about heart. So I think those things actually align quite well, Omz. And I would say that ADHD's piece that that one that you did collect, he's always had an amazing hand, and he he he collages these images. He also has this great vision. But I think this is a point with becoming that you really got to see the heart and the the experience and the values of him. And I would say similarly to James, he is brilliant with his technical skills.
He's brilliant with his philosophies and his his ideas. But to get those pieces that actually have his heart, his life experiences in them is is really special. One of the things I wanted to also bring up too, as we're thinking about artists, we wanna think about their collectors. So here I have a little pyramid, and we can think about when your guys are pricing your works too, you know, we think about, you know, if all your works are 50 k, you know what I mean? You you you've bracely priced out a bunch of artists. My thought with a lot of these artists, especially in the digital space is looking at, you know, hey, find other ways to engage collectors too. There's not every collector can collect a piece for $50.30, you know, 10 k, whatever.
And historically, in the traditional art world, an artist would start and they'd get a collector base in this sort of fan club or these these real champions of them. So as we're really thinking about, you know, the all the all the artists out there, really thinking about how do you grow and how do you have this pyramid that's quite stable and foundational. And then also collectors out there do know that maybe you've missed the boat on the pieces that are 50 k, but there are more boats that come to see and you don't know how beautiful it is for an artist to receive 500, 800, 1,000, $2,000, how much that means to them in their process, especially early on. So I just wanted to make note of that as we're we're talking about both artists and collectors. It's both a it's a process. You know?
And it's about, to Oms's point, figuring out who are you signaling and who are you attracting, and these things shouldn't be forced.
Speaker 11 Beautiful. Yeah. I I love that that pyramid. I was able to maximize it on the screen. Hopefully, people got to see it. It's so true. Like, for the artist, it's not just about selling super expensive works. You wanna bring people in. I mean, think of Sam Spratt. He gave away a lot of work to create such a strong base that then led him to create this entire world of lore and excitement that drives people in, and then you see people posting about these works with such depth. And you feel like you're really in it without needing to have spent a $100,000 necessarily to collect a Sam Sprat if you were there supporting early enough. So, like, I'm always fascinated to The the
Speaker 6 notation there, if you were there collecting early enough. And I think that's where we need to think about is there should still be other ways of accessing or participating or thinking about this. So artists that may have priced at these prices at one time, it is about readjusting and thinking about how do we bring more people to the table and not gatekeep them.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I definitely agree. And how often do you feel that that should be, like, a topic of thought for the artist from the collector's perspective?
Speaker 6 You know, again, I think to Oms's point, you gotta be authentic, and you gotta do what's authentic to you. So we do see people doing things that are authentic to them, and that that's that works. That's fine because that signals and attracts the people that are part of that sort of sphere or that sort of community. That's completely fine. I used to be an extreme art purist and say, oh, no. Never do merch. Never do you know, your artwork is the most important thing. Like, you have to hold strong. They'll come to you. But what I'm finding is there's amazing examples of artists that have have done different collectibles. They do merch. They do different ways of engaging. We're also seeing a generational trend too of of collectors that are younger, that are not into the, you know, the old stodgy Picasso painting of their grandmother.
I mean, I would take one. So any of those heirs to those those inheritance or don't want their per cost of, I'll gladly take it. But needless to say, they're much more into impact. They're much more into being part of a community. They're much more more into being part of a bigger a bigger vision, a bigger thing. And so I think an artist has a great responsibility, but also opportunity to say, wow. I can make my one on ones, but I can also engage a community if it's authentic to me that I can provide shirts or collectibles or, you know, different types of prints, for example. I'm, you know, I'm I'm living in in Riyadh now in Saudi Arabia, and it's not very popular to collect things and invite people into your home. But what I'm seeing is a big sort of entry point is prints.
And these are, you know, editions of 20 or whatever it might be. So, again, I think it's about being authentic to yourself. And I think that's a big thing that owns this thing too is be authentic because you attract. It's sort of dating. It's sort of like finding your family. You're gonna attract to the dinner party those that you want to have that add to the conversation and that have a good rapport with others, and that's the same as collecting art. Yeah. Also too, I wanna say, just to give big kudos to Oms with Abu Dhabi, it was beautiful to see things like Matt Matt Cain's son, you know, his his piece at a larger scale rather than on a phone or on a computer to see Leander Herzog's huge, you know, $11 fields of of of of of brushstrokes that were displayed.
So I think living with art, the scale of art, these are all beautiful things too. And maybe, Omg, you can talk about that and how that experience was for you.
Speaker 8 Yeah. Sure. I mean, those are all works, I think, that kind of touch on the the kind of paradigm or the formula that you mentioned earlier, Justin. You know? All aesthetically beautiful, but then everything had something kind of under the hood. And that was great, and that was the kind of the objective of the exhibition was to almost, like, kind of, you know, slowly introduce people to the world of blockchain, like, art. Right? But without them even realizing. So they walk in, they experience the visuals, they get attracted to the work just purely on the visuals at first. Then we explain the concept behind each work. We kind of explain how they work, what the ideas are, how they relate to the blockchain, and that kind of triggers curiosity and interest maybe on an intellectual level. So we get to see all types of engagement.
We get to see the kind of emotional engagement at the beginning when they just interact with the work on on the aesthetics alone. Then we start to see the intellectual connection when they understand the work, and then the scale makes all the difference. At the end of the day, I think, you know, you need to create an environment that does justice to the work, and these are all digitally native work. Right? So it makes sense to create an immersive, low lit environment where everything's displayed at a large scale. And so it really hit on all those senses as a result.
Speaker 11 Quick. I wanna touch base on that really quick. The displaying aspects. Do you feel that having displays in home or having a way for you to actually display your work, even if it's through ArtTab, which, I don't know if you guys are familiar with ArtTab by Quantized. Super cool. When you open a new tab on your computer, it opens artwork from your wallet. But even in any way at all, like, how you display work, a lot of people don't have displays at home. But do you feel like you think about, okay. I'm gonna buy this work so I can display it, or do you think in that realm or do you think collectors are at the stage where that matters, or is it mostly just about the providence and ownership and sense of belonging or whatever other reason might be outside of this place?
Speaker 8 I mean, for me, personally, I can only speak from my perspective. I still take a very long term view. So I'm not so worried about how I'm gonna display the work today. But I'm I mean, I I because I know and I trust I mean, the way technology works. Right? These things accelerate so quickly. So I feel like it's only a matter of time before we will have really affordable high quality displays that we can have at home. So for me, it's not a big factor right now. At the same time, having said that, I do think it is a factor for onboarding new collectors. So their perspective might be a little different than mine. So because it's a common question. So what do I do with this? How do I show how do I display it in my home?
It's a common question you get from people who aren't, let's say, so deeply invested or ingrained in in in in the space today. So I, you know, I do think it's important. For me personally, no. But I think for a lot of people, it is.
Speaker 6 And I think to Oswald's point also for, you know, an artist is it's also unique to the collector. But, you know, an artist now does have a responsibility or an opportunity to basically designate how they would like things to be displayed. I would be a little provocative now and say, unless light is part of your practice and as part of your medium, This is very crazy, but, like, if it require if your piece requires light being emitted from the back of something to give it a luminosity or transparency or an opaqueness, then, you know, a screen or or something like this is important. There's also things like light boxes. There's things like prints. Things can be three d three d printed. I know from, you know, the AOTM booth with, Dimitri Turniak that there were 20 prints, and a lot of them were new new, collectors.
And they were very excited to co buy the piece and collect the piece, and we onboarded them on onto you know, buying them with crypto or onto the blockchain. But then they were also it was like that entry point of, like, I see it as a print. I understand how it hangs in my home. And now I can understand the back the back end of onboarding with the the the blockchain and then what is an NFT and how that becomes a token or a certificate of authenticity or can be the artwork itself. So I think to Olmsted's point is, like, there there there are other ways to also get mass adoption. There are other ways to get new types of collectors. And I think there's also ways in which artists can display things and and collectors can display things.
But I would say to artists now as you're creating work and maybe, you know, you're mincing it on the blockchain, there are instructions of how it can be displayed or part of that. There are famous artists like Solowit and and others that gave instructions on how their wall drawings should be, how big they are, what size. And that's the other thing with artists now too. You're not limited to the size of a canvas or a slab of marble. So you really do have sort of dictation of how that can be displayed. And and, you know, is it in an arena for a for a a concert with Beyonce, or is it, you know, in a small iWatch or iWatch screen? What whatever it might be, there is a lot of a part, and that's part of the artist's part of the artist's opportunity, perhaps.
Speaker 11 Very interesting to think about that. Yeah. I think it's going to continue to evolve. I think for newer collectors, there's maybe they're entering from more of a web two background or traditional art background. The the great question is, what do I do with this now? I think that's a funny way of putting it, but it's a real truth. It's like, okay. How do I, like, express this? Like, you could usually put art up in your home. And I think that the accompaniment of a physical work with the digital is a really cool way to onboard people into the world of web three because they're like, okay. I understand I have this physical counterpart and then the provenance of the digital version. So, yeah, it's very interesting. As we close the talk, I wanna ask a question about how you both feel on utility within art.
There's always the standpoint of, like, art the art is the utility. Right? But, also, do you feel that utility drives collecting behavior in a positive way? Obviously, there's many cases, but do you feel like it's something that more artists should have? Obviously, it's very subjective. But in your opinion, do you like when there's utility involved in art, or do you more so rather have the focus just purely on the art?
Speaker 8 I think it's it's it's tricky. It's dangerous because utility can can create expectations depending on how it's communicated. I would never like, in general, I don't believe in, like, black or white. So, really, everything is a nuance. So it really depends how you incorporate it. I can give you an example. So James like, James Bloom has a collection called Gold, where if you hold the piece for a certain amount of time, you can actually unlock new layers that you can claim and add to your piece. And you do that for one year, two years, four years, ten years, and so on. So in in a way, you could you could could say that that's some kind of utility. Right? Because you're you're being rewarded as a collector over time. Right?
But it's done in a way where it's incorporated as part of the artwork because the the collection itself and the artwork itself is a commentary on markets and collective behavior and all that stuff and speculation and things like that. So it it's utility incorporated as part of the concept of the artwork, which I think is a really clever way of doing it. But in general, I mean, I think you have to be careful. Right? I think it's just as long as you communicate it and people don't have unrealistic or, you know, incorrect expectations, I think anything anything goes.
Speaker 6 I think it had so, again, this authenticity aspect, it needs to be authentic to the work, to the concept, to the piece. If we think about amazing Jack Butcher's utility that happened at our puzzle with, you know, scanning, what can that be? What is that there? I think you have to be careful with utility because is it cause I started thinking about utilities. Is it like design? Is it like a a furnish furniture? It's giving you something that gives you utility to sit on. Is it culinary arts where it's like giving you something to eat? I don't know. I I have to think about that a bit. I I think it's an interesting word that wasn't necessarily in the practice of art historically or wasn't as front forward. It doesn't mean that it can't be front forward, but it just is a matter of using it in an authentic way.
I think those that use the blockchain as a medium, like James, like Jack, that makes sense utility. As far as utility goes for some of these communities that are around artworks, that might be a marketing effort rather than an artwork. So just something to be be aware of as one's creating their quote, unquote utility for their artwork.
Speaker 11 Really well put. Is it a marketing effort, or is it actually part of the art? This has been an amazing talk. I feel like we could definitely go for a lot longer. This has really been powerful, and I appreciate you guys being here and spending the time. Justin, making the time to get in even among travel. That means a lot. Thank you for coming to share your wisdom and your experience in OMS, you as well. I really appreciate both of you guys, and I look forward to listening back on this again and gleaning even more from it. Both both of you guys, have a ton of respect for. So, thanks again for coming around, and, really appreciate you being a part of this.
Speaker 6 Yeah. And before we wrap up too, I just wanna also say to you, your efforts and your creation of the the different projects that you've had, the discoverability. These are all part of the ecosystem building. And even this effort here is really beautiful. So I wanna commend you. I I know you it takes work. It takes time. I wanna and those that are listening now too, this is part of your time. Om, you know how I feel and what your efforts have been as well, especially this last one in Abu Dhabi. And I just wanna encourage everyone. This is I mean, I'm not gonna say we're early, but this is part of the process. And I don't know where things are gonna shake out in 2026 or 2027.
But if you believe in something and you have others around you that believe in you, my father once said, do we be around those that you believe in and they believe in you, and you won't go wrong. So I encourage everyone to, as 2026 comes about, find those that you believe in and those that believe in you. And I think I'm really glad to be aligned with you two because I really believe in what you're doing and appreciate what you believing in what I'm doing. Just to plug real quick before we go tomorrow, I'm gonna be giving a solo, and we're gonna look at how we got here and and looking at art. And so the things we saw in Miami, the things we saw in Abu Dhabi are just not happenstance that we come upon digital art.
We we have a lineage of amazing people that have worked in the seventies, eighties in different labs and universities and and got us to where we're at. So if anyone's interested in that, we'll we'll be doing that tomorrow with Satoshi too. So thank you, Satoshi.
Speaker 11 Massive appreciation. Thank you for those words. That's tomorrow at 1PM eastern time, by the way, with Justin. That's gonna be incredible. I'm really looking forward to that. Justin always has a great voice and great talks, so that's gonna be fantastic. And we do also have the privilege of Ohmes joining us tomorrow as well on another panel at 12:00, 12PM eastern on bridging web two and web three, so that's gonna be incredible as well. We're gonna move into the next talk with Gavin Mueller, who is backstage right now. We're gonna be talking with him on the journey of being an artist and building a career as an artist. So super stoked to dive into that. We'll take a quick break. Thank you guys again for being here, and, stoked to have the more talks in the future as well.
Speaker 8 Pleasure, man. Thanks a
Speaker 11 lot. Thank you so Appreciate y'all. Thank you, guys. We'll go ahead and we'll break really quickly, and, we'll come on back. And I'm stoked to chat with, the legend, Gavin Mueller, who is backstage right now. Super, super excited. We'll be right back, y'all.
Speaker 11 Gavin, what's up, man? What's up? Good to see you, man. Really stoked to see you. Awesome. For everybody, if you don't know Gavin Mueller, he is an incredible artist, incredible soul, an amazing dude. Absolutely go follow him on socials if you aren't already. Just a quick intro for Gavin. He is based in rural Georgia in The United States. He's a self taught artist that creates works in both the physical and the digital, and he's known for his figures with the signature Meeler hand and exaggerated oversized hands and arms with these frenzied eyes. His work has so much soul and energy. I'm really excited to talk with you more about your practice and ultimately your journey as an artist. You've been a full time artist for quite a long time, and you've definitely learned a lot.
And, it's really cool just to even see these old photos of you, Gavin, from just putting works on at, like, different, like, places that you've been doing, like, live works and live, like, selling of physical works just from years and years ago and seeing your style back then as well and just seeing how it's really the through line and the red thread between all of it. It's really beautiful, and I just really appreciate you spending the time with us today to share more about that. So, again, welcome, and I'm super stoked to dive in with you.
Speaker 5 Yeah. I'm I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 11 Awesome. Well, we can just go ahead and just get started with talking about what the journey started off like for you. And, you know, have you always known that you wanted to be an artist? How did that process begin for you, and when did it begin?
Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah. At at a young age, our family always had this, like, antique show on, and they would always, like, show these artworks. They would show, like, different things, like vintage Levi's, like, coins, and then they would show some art pieces. And I always loved art. And when I seen that, it was just like I don't know. Like, something really resonated with me. And then I seen, like, auction house things, and I wasn't too familiar as a kid, but, like, I played as a kid. Like, I was at auction house selling my artwork and stuff, and I would, like, pretend to be, like, the auctioneer, the the audience, the different artists even. I would have, like, different styles in there, and it it was just, like, a fun thing.
And it didn't really, like you know, throughout middle school, I was in, like, the AP art type thing, and it didn't really hit me until really high school that, like, I just assumed that I was gonna be an artist. You know? Like, it was just it just wasn't always thing, and then I realized everyone started wanting to, like, do different careers and stuff. And and for me, it was just always being an artist. Even if it was me having a full time job, it was like the arts, what I was gonna go after in the end. So, yeah, it's it's always been this kinda thing in the back of my head.
Speaker 11 So interesting. It's so funny, like, when we think about, like, us as kids doing these types of things. Like, you were basically doing, like, an auction house, like, like, you're playing as an auction house, if I'm understanding that correctly. That's Yes. No fun. And now look at you, man. I mean, isn't that insane to think about? What do you think younger Gavin would say looking at current Gavin?
Speaker 5 Honestly, I honestly think that, like like, the the younger self would really admire what I've done because it's kinda like like, you don't really know if it's possible. And and that kid version of me, you know, like, I came from, like, you know, just just nowhere. You know? Like like, stuck in, like I don't know. You know? Just just just some childhood trauma things. And and now I wouldn't expect it, I guess, necessarily. But then again, I did have my parents, which always kinda, like, told me that I could do anything. And that that really, to me, means a lot because, you know, like, as as you grow up, it's kinda like you have to believe in this delusion. Like, that says what I kinda, like, think of is people that are going after something, and I would think that being an artist is difficult.
I feel like you have to kinda follow this delusion where, you know, it feels like anybody almost could pick up a paintbrush and make some, like, some some something. You know? They could put something to a canvas, but to believe in a delusion as far as to think that it could be your career, it's like it's a little bit more, I guess I I don't I don't exactly know how to describe it. But, you know, it's like this delusion that you have to keep up until it happens.
Speaker 11 I totally understand what you mean. Like, the delusion of, like, having a dream that is so ballsy and audacious that you feel like if you sobered up enough to the reality of, like, just the idea that it could just even make you feel like, well, like, being realistic, how how will that happen? And, like, if we're just delusional enough to believe in our dreams, the dreams that I believe that we're given for a reason, that reason being that we are meant to go after them and then the universe somehow ends up aiding us on the journey with in ways that we could never describe or predict, in advance. But, you know, like Steve Jobs says, the classic quote, it's like, can't connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards. And, I absolutely understand what you mean.
Like, I I think it's really a beautiful journey to think about you, like, being a kid and being like, I wanna be an artist and, like, having my art auctioned off. And, like, you would be, like, thinking through, like, I'm the auctioneer. Now I'm the artist, and here's the work. And, like, putting it all together, and then now actually, you know, fast forward, you're here today, and you're definitely, I think, looking at the current market and looking at your success, you've done incredibly well. You've reached a lot of people from all over the world, and you're truly just getting started. So in that journey, I'm curious, like, where was this, like, inflection point of really kind of having, like, that spark moment where it went from this delusion of an idea of, like, this is what I wanna do, and this is what I'm believing in and and continuing towards, and I'm following that delusion and believing in it to it being like, damn.
This is actually real. Was there a moment for you that you feel like that kind of, like, that spark ended up happening, or what what was that like for you stepping into it more?
Speaker 5 Yeah. I feel like as soon as I hit high school or, like, after high school, it was kinda like, alright. Now you gotta go figure it out. And, like, kinda, like, from that moment on, like, I sold a painting right out of high school, and then it kinda dried up for a long time. But that really gave me the confidence, almost like it gave you a a confidence in the delusion that, like, you know, like, okay. This this thing can actually be real. That really set me up for, like like, basically, how it went was it was a canvas piece, and they the person asked me how much it was, and I told them what I what I realistically wanted for it. Not like you know, like, being an artist sometimes, it's difficult with the pricing and everything. It's just the early on, like, that was, like, right out of high school.
I really didn't know too much about pricing or anything. But, like, basically, there's some times where you just wanna give them such a good price that it sells so that you know definitely that you made some money. You know? Like so instead, I just told them the price of what I wanted for it, not, like, what I think they'll take. And I asked them, basically, I told them it would be 800, and they said, that's okay. And I assumed when they said that's okay, they meant, that's okay. I don't want it. But they meant like, I basically like, two days went by or something, and I was like, oh my gosh. They actually meant they want it for that much. And that really set off this, like, idea that, like, I think I am on the right track and that, you know, my art is worth, you know, what what I basically put the price to it as.
And, yeah, so that that is really, like, the turning point. It was, like, right out of high school.
Speaker 11 Oh, I can't hear you. Sorry. You're You're I said that's a hell of a moment because, like, that's a that's a big, like, leap in your own faith because it's like, how do we go from art for survival in, like, actually in our mind, like, pricing it the right way and not trying to underprice it just so it moves and sells to, like, really, like, believing in ourselves and saying, no. Like, this is this is the price that I believe it really should be and what my heart really feels is right. And then having somebody aligned with that is absolutely incredible. I think that's a moment where artists then start to believe in themselves more and more and more. It's like a snowball momentum effect. And I'm curious, like, when you started having that type of success, where was that for you?
Like, what was your thought process being an artist? Did you just think to yourself, I need to go to these, like, art fairs or these, like, trade show style play To sell my work and get in front of people, or were you using the Internet? How was that like for you?
Speaker 5 Yeah. So, like, after that sale, I was really in a place where I was kinda stuck. And I just kinda thought, like, if that's possible, then I can I can I could do something with this because I already believed it for so long? And so I started reaching out at first on Facebook, just kinda, like like, literally saying, can I hang basically, what I thought was we were kind of at the time, I think it was 2000 I think it was 2018? So at the time, we were, like, moving into, like, a truly social media time. And I was like, okay. I'm gonna post on social media, and I'm just gonna say, does anybody want to show my work anywhere? Even if it's, like, you know, for free, at a restaurant, like, at least so I can post it somewhere. You know, that was kinda, like, my mind frame.
Not necessarily, like, selling it, but, like, maybe if somebody's interested. I just thought that, you know, I'd have to work longer for more sales to come. And I didn't get any momentum from that, but what I did get is somebody basically clashing back by saying, like, kinda trashing on my art publicly and then started posting it and then posted it in groups. And then, like, went like it went like a, you know, like, locally viral where the guy said something about, like, I've seen better stuff in the elementary school. So so, basically, I kinda didn't say anything. I just kinda DM'd him. And what's funny is after like, I didn't DM him in a bad way. I was just like, you know, like, woah. What's going on? Like, why are you, you know, trashing on people?
And, anyways, what's funny is he ended up buying a piece from me, and then bought another small piece. And it was, like, it was, like, $20. It was, like, a very small piece, but, like, you know, it was just kinda like, okay. So that kinda, like, built this momentum in my head that, like, maybe sometimes you don't need positive reinforcement, but you mean negative reinforcement too. Like, you know, it was kinda nice actually to, like, have somebody talk about my art and trash it because then it was like it really made me kinda think about what I wanna do with my art. And, you know, for like, at no point did I think, like, was was he right. You know? Like, I just thought that it was interesting, I think. And from there, I did show it a couple of things.
I did some live paintings at some local places where there was, like, art pop ups with a bunch of local artists. And then I did, like, four of those. And then I got in with a local gallery, which was like basically, I just live painted there. I did show a couple of my pieces there. Nothing sold from there or anything, but it was just kinda cool. I was, like, showing, like, the local newspaper of me live painting. And it was just like this, like, thing of, like, okay. I'm, like, kinda, like, in the dirt. You know? I'm, like, I'm hustling. I'm I'm doing my thing, basically. And then that's whenever I seen the crypto art space and kinda seen what that was about. I seen, you know, Gary Vee talking about it. I started seeing x copies, seeing Beeple.
You know, I've seen all this stuff going on, and I'm like, this is crazy because I would have been here, you know, from, like, day one if I known this was a thing. Because, yeah, I was going around my area to, like I was calling up all the galleries, all the everything, trying to, you know, show my work. Because for me, like I said, I just was focused on showing my work, not selling it necessarily. I just wanted to see it in as many places as possible.
Speaker 11 Interesting. When was this time frame, by the way? Around what year was or what year was it when you found CryptoArt?
Speaker 5 Okay. So so the whole, like, Facebook thing in my first sale is, like, 2018. And then between 2019 to 2020 is whenever I was showing in group shows and then, like, that gallery. And then in 2021, COVID happened, and I basically they the gallery shut down. They started at first, they went all online, and then they shut down because they just couldn't do it. They couldn't, you know, deal with it. And then that's whenever I seen in 2021. Late twenty twenty is whenever I heard about it, and then 2021 is whenever I really got into it. And that was, like, June.
Speaker 11 And that was because you heard Gary Vee. You saw x copy and Beeple. Was it Beeple? Did you mention this?
Speaker 5 Yeah. And then Ferocious as well. I the the original thing that I've seen was actually Gary Vee talking to Ferocious about, like, being basically a successful artist in this digital space. And that really kinda, like, that really resonated with me because it kinda brought it all back because, you know, I felt like I wasn't being ambitious enough even though I was out there doing it. Once I seen them talking and him talking about him being in an auction house, all of a sudden, it it was like a flashback whenever I used to, you know, like, pretend to be in auction houses as a kid. And I'm I was kinda like, hold on. My dream is to become, like like, you know, like, a artist to make this an artist career. And this kid is is making it happen, so I need to make it happen as well.
It was just kinda like a it lit a fire under me, and I really wanted to research what digital art was all about.
Speaker 11 That's so cool, honestly. So it's like because I'm fascinated in thinking about how people were drawn into this space, and so many of us, including myself, were drawn in around late twenty twenty, early twenty twenty one. And it makes me wonder, like, when will we have another similar type of magnetization of creatives into this space? And I think that, you know, it was a unique condition around that time, and I don't necessarily think it's gonna be a replication of what happened. But I love that story because, really, it what it feels like is that you felt there was this alignment within you that it just made more sense to sell your art digitally because you already had the experience of selling in person, and it's kind of cumbersome in some ways. But then you were also selling digitally with your first sale because it happened over Facebook, technically. Is that right?
Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, technically, it was a, like, a a social, you know, sell.
Speaker 11 So Interesting. Right? Like so now, you know, growing from that point and like, how do you feel that, like, the digital landscape is, like because you make physical works. Do you still feel that you are gravitated towards wanting to sell in person, or do you just feel like the digital realm is just much more efficient and more in alignment with the way that you like to express and share?
Speaker 5 Honestly, I really love both, but I I like the idea of animation. I love to do these, like, very subtle animations. Honestly, it's it's something that I've kind of been obsessed with this year. Was, like, chasing this, like, kinda, like, obscure, like, what I would describe as, like, a a high heart rate arc. You know? Like, that's kinda, like, what I what I see it as, you know, the eyes are just moving so fast, and it's almost like like this, like, high heart rate, kind of feeling. It's like this frenzied, yeah, animalistic, like so, like, I really like to express that in an animation because I feel like you can really I feel like it it gets the message across easier when it's a moving image rather than, like, a a physical piece. But I do love working in in both mediums really equally.
Speaker 11 I love I love the perspective. And, like so, ultimately, when it came for you, you made your first sale, it happened through Facebook ultimately. And then you learned over time. You started selling again. You're you're using the tools to your disposal, calling galleries, trying to get your work displayed places. Then you found out about crypto art, diving into crypto art. What was your first steps in the realm of crypto art? Like, did you immediately start minting? Was there, like, a research phase? Like, what was it like for you getting involved in the digital art realm with crypto art?
Speaker 5 Yeah. So, like, luckily, I, like, didn't have like, okay. Right after that Gary v and Ferocious thing, basically, I started researching NFTs. Luckily, I had, like, no money whatsoever because I started clicking on all the links. Do you know what I mean? Like, you look up NFT, I thought if I looked up NFT, I would find all the works. You know? Like, I didn't know how it worked. I didn't know there were specific platforms. So I really could have messed myself up there. I just started clicking everything that had to do with NFT. I started learning as much as I could. And at the time, I was actually I okay. So I looked up NFT, and I finally found Rarible. It's the very first thing I found. Nice. And then I I minted a bunch of stuff on there, and I didn't sell anything because I didn't market it, really.
I posted it on Instagram. And at the time, I only had Instagram, so I just kinda posted it on there. Nobody seen it or anything because nobody I wasn't in, like, a niche. I was in, a, you know, a normal art niche, I guess. And then I kinda, like, posted it. It was, like, dropping my first NFT on Instagram. And then I was told about super rare, and then I got them super rare. No. Not super. Sorry. OpenSea. I got them OpenSea. And, basically, I posted a couple of things. I tagged OpenSea. OpenSea, like, reposted it in their story about my piece, and then that piece sold, which is, like, crazy. Like, I honestly like, I didn't expect it to sell that quick. Whenever I got into this space, I really thought that it might take me a year or two before I make anything.
That's kind of my mindset. Was like I was just gonna consistently work. Like, I didn't think I would make anything at all, so that was crazy enough. And then all of a sudden, all the other pieces started selling. And I was only on Instagram for, like, I guess, like, a week and a half went by, and I was still just on Instagram. No Twitter. And then finally, created a Twitter because everybody told me to get on there. And I I never worked Twitter before. Like, I'm not, like, a Twitter kinda guy. You know? Like, I didn't know anything about it. So I kinda had to figure that out. And and yeah. So from there, it was just kinda like things really started picking up because I started following all the people that were buying my work. Yeah. Yeah.
And then and then oh, and then, a little bit later on, OpenSea put me on the homepage, which in 2021, it that was, like, a big deal. I see. It was honestly crazy because people were like, they asked me, you know, to do a couple things on my page so that they could put me on the home page. And I told a couple of people that bought my work that I'm gonna be there, and they were like, you know, like, this is gonna be crazy for you whenever they do that. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, it's not that big of a deal. Right? Yeah. That was crazy.
Speaker 11 Damn. So, like, when did this point happen for you where you realized this is gonna be my career? Like, the talk again, the pan the topic of the talk is building a career as an artist. And what do you feel is the distinction between just making art for pure enjoyment and actually building a career as an artist?
Speaker 5 Yeah. I mean, really, I just focus like, the kinda I feel like I don't know if this works for everybody, but for me, it works. I really create art just for me. It's like, I just try to get out this kinda, like, void. So, like, that's kinda what I focus on when I'm making art. I never have thought about, like, what what might sell, what might trend, what whatever. You know, it's just all about the work at the time. And then once once it's, like, made, then I can kinda, I guess, think about all the aspects to go into it as a career. And I'm like, okay. Now that it's out there, now that I made it, is it marketable? Is it even shareable? Do I keep this to myself? You know, like, all these kind of things. And then if it is marketable, you know, like, I start deciding.
You know, like, it's kinda like you make it as, like, this almost hobby thing. Not hobby, but, you know, like, make it as a passionate thing that you do that nobody's gonna see, and then you decide later that, like, okay. Yeah. I'm gonna show this. I'm gonna like that.
Speaker 11 Interesting. So, like, for you, it's a very simple thing. It's not a complicated thing. You just focus on making the art for yourself, and the rest has really fallen into place. And you said that you kinda decide on which works you wanna share. Do you share everything, or do you, like, think of it in terms of marketing, or is it really just as pure as I make the art that I feel compelled to make, and I make it for me. And then you share the work you feel compelled to share, and whatever happens, happens.
Speaker 5 Yeah. A lot of work I don't share. Like, like, you know, like, I create a lot a day, but I don't share everything. And I don't even share necessarily what I think might socially do well
Speaker 5 way. You know? Like, I just kinda share whatever I feel comfortable with. And a lot of times, I'm just like, when I'm making VR and in the process of art, I'm, like, chasing this, like, idea of what I see as a masterpiece. You know? Like, it's just, like, in my head, I just kinda chase this idea of what I want to create. And it's kinda like every piece. If it's not the masterpiece that I'm looking for, it's like a brick in in this, like, making of, like, a bridge. And it's just kinda like this process of, like, every now and then, I'll make a piece, and I'm like, wow. This this is it. This is what I've been chasing. And then I basically go to the next level, and I just keep, like, elevating the levels and building out, like, this bridge.
And prob I I guess the idea is you just keep doing that until you die, basically. You know? Like, you just keep chasing this masterpiece idea that you have in your head, which isn't really determined by anything other than, like, just my personal opinion. Like, other people could think that one of the, you know, like, random pieces that I make might be their favorite piece, and they don't even like the piece that I would call a masterpiece. But just basically the process of that is all that I'm kinda chasing. And and, yeah, I guess that's the idea.
Speaker 11 Wow. I love the simplistic take that you provide. It feels really refreshing, and the it feels like you've removed complexity from the process of making art. At least from an external standpoint, it kind of it feels like you've simplified things in such a way that this really allows you to be very pure in your process and your practice, and I really admire that. Would you agree with
Speaker 5 that? Yeah. I mean, I I don't think that it should be complex. You know? I think that it should be simple. Too much complex like, basically, how my whole lifestyle is, like, all about simple. I don't want anything to be too complex. My themes and ideas are complex, and that's about as much as, you know, like, it like, you know, I I think that for me, like, you know, when people talk about there's a message in their art and stuff, for me, they're the message is that there is no message. Not not necessarily in the theme. There's a lot of themes that go on. There's a lot of, you know, internal thoughts and stuff, but an overall message for my art is that there is no message and that I'm just creating cool shit. You know?
Like, I don't want to make it complex because that that's where the fun is for me is just making things. And yeah.
Speaker 11 That's so that's so sick. I love that. That's so pure. And I feel like from a collector's standpoint, that is really nice, honestly, because it doesn't feel like there's a whole entire thing that I need to read, like a whole thesis or, like, a dissertation on, like, what this art is. And, like, I feel like it really meets me where I'm at with, like you know, as a collector in many ways. It's like I wanna, you know, dive into stuff, but I feel like your work offers a really cool way to connect with you and your mind without offering, like, this crazy, like like, goose chase of complexity that sometimes gets introduced. And it's like I don't know. Something about that is very comforting and very enjoyable. Yeah. I think
Speaker 5 I I just feel like I feel like sometimes we want to make things so complex when it doesn't need to be. To me, it's kinda like with art. The reason why I make art not not the reason why, but one of the big reasons why I like to make art is because you have, like, this idea of a temporary life. So, like, it's pretty simple. You live And then you die. You know? Like, it's it's very simple, and and I feel like all the complexity that goes into it can be actually in the art. And, you know, you can you can look into the fine detail, especially if you're looking at, like, a peace of mind, like, in person. There's, like, like, texture, and there's, like you know, like, it's just this raw emotion, and it could be complex when you see it. But for me, the way I'm gonna explain it, it's just gonna be simple.
Speaker 11 Very interesting. I'm curious, like, when it comes down to your practice as an artist, you said you create a lot. Is this like like, when you wake up in the morning, is the first thing that you do is just dive into creating? Is there any, like, schedule around it, or is it just go with the flow, feel the moment, you feel like maybe you have an idea of that that masterpiece that you're after, you work towards it, you put it down, maybe make some really amazing craft mac and cheese like we talked about, the, you know, come back to it. And, like, what is your day to day like?
Speaker 5 Yeah. Well, you know, I'm I guess it's not newly now, but I feel like it's still new. I'm newly a dad. I have a daughter that's one Galatians. In a couple of months, and that kinda preoccupies a lot of time. So, like, before, it was kinda like, you know, you you kinda just get in the studio whenever studio. By studio, I mean, a trash bag in the corner. That's my studio. So, basically, you know, it's kinda like now there's a lot of morning time. Like, you know, you you get up with the family, maybe post the GM, maybe post something. You kinda you kinda live life for a minute, and then it's kinda, like, at a certain point, like, I don't really know what point, but, like, sometimes it's nine, sometimes it's eleven. All of a sudden, it's, like, locked in time, and, like, the time just disappears after that. Like, you
Speaker 5 I just start making art, and sometimes I'll look at the clock, and it'll be, like, 4PM. Sometimes it's, like, 11PM. You know? Like, the time just literally flies. Because sometimes you I get so locked in. And some days, it's like, I start at, like, nine in the morning, and it feels like nothing's really working on the Canvas or digitally. And, like, I'll just kinda, like, get up, throw a piece of paint at it, and say, like, fuck this and walk off and and and go and live life for a minute and then come back to it and be like, okay. That looks pretty sick and then start again. You know? Like, it just depends.
Speaker 11 I love that. Dude, again, really, it's very comforting to listen to you talk about your practice. And, obviously, you are you. You're living it, so it's maybe different. But from an outside perspective, just hearing the way that you approach your work and the way your practice is, it just feels like very simple. It feels like, like artists listening to this that are still emerging and still figuring things out or maybe haven't even gotten involved in Web three, but are listening because they want to be involved in Web three. I feel like it makes it feel very approachable to make this a reality and make a career as an artist really a true thing for them. And I really love that. I feel like we need more of that because they're you know, when we complexify things, it makes things more difficult. It makes executing more difficult.
But the way that you put it, it just seems simple. It seems like just make what's in your heart and share it and don't really worry about the way that people are gonna view it. And just put yourself out there, but also, like, follow follow your soul, follow your heart. And, I mean, how would you say do you feel like that's accurate? Or, like, what do you think about the your process in the in that regard?
Speaker 5 Yeah. I mean, I guess I I guess, to me, it should be for for me, it's simple, and it should be simple because that's that's just, like, my lifestyle. You know? Like, I don't I don't like drama or stress. You know? Like, I don't go to parties. I don't drink. I don't smoke. You know? Like like, I don't do a lot of things. So, like, for me, it's all about simplicity. It's about everything just being kinda like like, life is stressful as it is. So I don't I might be angry or stressed out when I'm making a piece of art, but I can just put it all on the canvas digitally or physically and just, you know, just throw it down and and then feel good and then walk away because it's kinda like, you know, you just you just leave it on the canvas.
And to me, that's my outlet. So yeah. I mean, I feel like, for me, it is a simple process. And then I guess the actual painting itself is where all the, you know, thoughts go.
Speaker 11 I love it. I really, really appreciate the way that you're you're sharing this. For someone listening who is a newer artist, what would you say to them? Like, how how should they go about getting involved in this world of Web three from your perspective?
Speaker 5 I mean, I guess you can go about it so many different ways. You can I wouldn't suggest the way that I did? You know, type in NFT into Google and see what happens. That's probably not the way I would suggest to do it, but you can do that. But, like, you know, just I guess you'd have to know who to follow, which is probably one of the I actually have onboarded a decent amount of artists, and that's one of the most complex things is you have to actually hold people's hand and guide them on who to follow. I think that's that's a very difficult thing for new artists to coming into the space. You have to, like you really have to do your own research on on who you want to, like there's so many people in the space. There's so many sides to the space.
Some people only make Tezos art, you know, like, only. You know? Some people only make ETH art. Some people only make Bitcoin art. You know? And and to see that and to see that there's all these different areas of, like, crypto art, digital art, Honestly, it's really hard to navigate, I would say, for a newcomer. I feel like, to me, it was easier in 2021. But, I mean, as far as, like, making it a career, I mean I mean, I would say that you need delusion. You would need ambition, and you need to be here. You don't have to be posting every day, but you need to be here every day at least looking and seeing what's going on, checking in with people. You know, that's what I like to do a lot of times is is I just like to check if I'm not doing anything.
If for some reason I did just, like, walk away from the canvas because I wasn't happy with whatever I created, I'll just, like, DM some people and ask them how it's going, kinda conversate. So I feel like, you know, connecting with people is a big part of of what the space is right now, especially. We're so new to it all. We can't really say good strategies or anything like that. I just think that building relationships and posting art every day is pretty much all you can do.
Speaker 11 That's great wisdom, honestly. I love the, like, the point you made about taking a step back, connect with people, just see how people are doing. It really is, one of the best parts of this space is how we can really just connect with one another so simply and easily. We don't have to be fancy at a gallery and dressed up in order to go just say hello to someone and make a friend. I think one of the coolest parts of the space is making friends with other artists and connecting with other creators and builders and supporting one another is really one of the coolest aspects of it all. Like, I feel like and we touched on this yesterday in in one of the talks about how we're at a moment of this space where we're very tight knit, and I feel like we're now getting into this next phase where we can unite.
I feel like 2021, there was, like, a lot of, like, camaraderie and excitement around number go up and, you know, all of the speculation. But now that a lot of that has kinda faded away, not entirely, obviously, but the people here are really building for the long term because they really love it. And it's time we all unite and help one another and work together and do more collaborations, and, I feel like that's a really cool thing that you mentioned. It just, like, reaching out and saying what's up and connecting with people. I wanna ask you about your signature character. How do you feel that that developed? Like, was it something that was always present in your work? And, obviously, it's refined, I'm sure, over time. Tell us a little bit about that process, like, finding that signature.
Speaker 5 Yeah. I mean, I I feel like it's kind of an a thing that I'm always figuring out. I feel like I still I I still feel like I'm experimenting. I feel like as far as my art has gone and the way that I think about it, I'm still, like, only, like, a year into, I guess, creating a signature. You know, like, even though I've been working on it since I don't know how long it's been, not really years of working on my craft and stuff since, like, middle school. But, like, it just feels like I'm still just so I guess it just feels like I'm still chasing that idea of whatever a masterpiece is in my head, and that's pretty much all I'm I'm focused on. And I feel like I'm still fresh.
Speaker 11 That's it's it feels like it's a very organic process for you, and it's just evolving divinely, honestly, from the way that you're attracting collectors into your world, from the way you share on socials, from the way you go about your practice. I feel like from an outsider looking in, hearing this conversation, it inspires me to really not take everything so seriously and simplify the practice of it all and focus on the work. Focus on making incredible work and pouring our our heart into it. Not because I'll think that a, b, c, d, everyone else, x, y, z will think that it's cool or because there's a trend that I wanna capitalize. It's really just because I want to express it and leave it on the canvas. What do
Speaker 5 I mean, I feel like I'll feel the same way whenever I'm, like, a 100. Like, basically, I feel like I just got started. I feel like, you know, I haven't really done that masterpiece yet. You know? Like, it's just like this process that I chase, and it shouldn't be, yeah, this or for me, it shouldn't be this complex thing where, you know, you have all these, like I yeah. Basically, it's kinda like what I said. It's like, just just leave it on the canvas. You know? Like, it's kinda like you you leave it at the door. You leave it on the canvas. You you know? Whenever somebody says, you know, like, in in life, there's just so many things that can happen. You know, you're you're just lucky to be alive every day. You know? You're you're just like like, you just decided to put on different shoes that day.
And because you did that, you know, you didn't die in a car crash because if you would have put on the other shoes and you would hurried out the door, then, like, you know, you you would you know, like, that kind of thing? It just makes me feel like I need to be more aware of how simple I should make things and try not to get so stressed out. You know? Because, like, it could end at any moment. And that's kinda what my art is all about for me.
Speaker 11 That's beautiful. That's really beautifully put, and it's so true. Like, I feel like sometimes, you know, we we just thinking about, like, we're here. We're able to do this. We're able to create. We're able to breathe in and breathe out and work towards something amazing and feel things, which means we're alive. And there's beauty in that and and expressing what's in us through art and doing it in a digital means where we could share with someone on the other side of the world. These are beautiful things to be grateful for and starting our days with gratitude and ending it with gratitude and feeling just the gratitude of being here and being able to play the game. That's a beautiful beautiful thing.
Speaker 5 Yeah. And remember to eat mac and cheese.
Speaker 11 Specifically, the extra cheesy crafted Kraft mac and cheese, which is Yeah. Thick thick and creamy is is the best. Yes. Thick and creamy with the red it's red. Right? It has the red label?
Speaker 5 Yeah. It's like maybe it's orange, yellow. I don't know. I don't know. But that's that's the kind. Thick and creamy mac and cheese. Be grateful for the things that you enjoy.
Speaker 11 Hell yeah, man. Man, this has been absolutely amazing. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to sit with us and to really just share about you and your journey. And, yeah, I really enjoyed this talk. I I really enjoyed it as well. Man, I'd love to chat anytime. Always always would be down to talk with you about your practice and what you're working on. As we finish the talk, I'd like to ask you what's next for Gavin Mueller. What's what are you working on? Are you working on anything that you can share any details about, or is it kinda under wraps? I mean,
Speaker 5 there's a lot of things I'm working on. I'm very the the bad part is I'm very spontaneous with with how my thought process is as far as, like, you know, like, you get four ideas for different collections a day. You know, if you're just like you know, you're working on so many different things. So I'm sure something will come up, and it'll just I'll just start talking about it.
Speaker 11 I love it. Amazing. Fantastic, man. Thank you again for spending time with us, and I hope everybody watching has gotten to fully absorb this energy. You're an incredible soul, incredible dude, and, congratulations again on the little one, the upcoming, big first birthday. I wish nothing but the absolute best for you and your family, and I'm stoked to continue to follow along. And I'm grateful that the Digital Asset Museum is stewarding one of your works, hopefully, many more to come in the future.
Speaker 5 Thank you. Really appreciate being on here.
Speaker 11 Hell yeah, man. Well, we can wrap this one and get ready for the next chat coming up. But, dude, again, thank you so much for being here, and I look forward to the next time we get to chat and get to just continue with an amazing conversation like this. Thank you. Appreciate you, Gavin. What an incredible guy. What an incredible guy. That is seriously one of the coolest people that I've talked to in this space, really. Gavin really has such a unique way of putting things so simply. It's very inspiring for me. So I hope that you also took a lot from that. Again, I wanna remind everyone that all these talks are recorded. So day one's talks, they're recorded. They're on x as of right now. Every single talk is recorded.
So what we're doing is taking these talks, and they are since they are recorded, we're putting them into an educational platform that we're building out, as a public good that will be free forever to access. Anyone in the world with an Internet connection will be able to access these talks, but also this platform that we are building. And the platform is designed to help onboard people into the world of web three, whether as an artist or a builder or a dev or creator or trader, whatever it is that people would be interested in. I'm sure that you you're already involved in the web three world, you've wondered, like or you've had people say, how do I get started as an artist? And you're like, well, download MetaMask or download whatever. And then they're like, okay. Now what? And it's like, to manifold or go to transient.
It's like there's no real step by step process to get people involved, and that's what we're building. And luckily, we've been so, so grateful to have the support of the sponsors that made this possible. Since this is a complete completely free public good, this is completely supported by sponsors. So as you can see at the bottom here scrolling by, our lead sponsor, NightShare, has been so generous to sponsor this summit and really fuel this whole entire thing coming to life. It would not be possible without sponsors like NightShare. And like all the other sponsors that also are supporting this process and initiative, I just wanna quickly give recognition to them. NightShare, our lead sponsor, as I mentioned, Cindy, who's an absolute incredible human being. Crypto Night Gal, is her handle on Twitter. Follow her. She's amazing. MJ Data, also known as Champagne Man, follow them as well.
OXMQQ, all of these People. Give them a follow. Jason and Danielle Patterson, not on x, but incredible human beings, incredible people. The DeFi Fund, that's DeFi dot fund, on x. Definitely an incredible initiative that is just awesome how it's helping fuel initiatives in the space. Autonomous Artifact, Spuma, these are incredible people, these sponsors that help bring this to life. Killian Moore, Basedanos and Endri from OkDJen, Felix Felix Felix from Cypherdudes, and Odeus, or also known as today Odeus on x. These people have helped fuel this initiative. Without sponsors to fuel this, it wouldn't be possible. So, the Digital Asset Museum being a nonprofit is a five zero one c three. So any sponsorship is tax deductible, And, if you feel compelled that you wanna support the mission, you can go to the link in our bio, in the description or in our bio. It's our endowment page.
Even giving a dollar via Apple Pay or $5 or a $100, whatever it would be is going to make a difference, and it goes directly towards making this come to life. So our mission is to welcome the world into web three, and the Digital Asset Museum is doing that through preserving the moment as we're living it through curations and through talks like this, through bringing education to the masses around web three, and through overall just giving a place where we can lift up the artists and creators and builders of this space and champion them to continue to create amazing things, to make this space continue to grow. Our belief is that lifting up the space from the base, which is from the emerging artists and builders and creators, is the way to make our space grow and to onboard more people into it.
Giving education to the world on web three onboards more people into web three and makes the space grow, brings in collectors, it brings in creators. And, if we can bring in the next big creator to create something incredible, then we can onboard way more people than we could ever imagine through just creating more solutions within the space. So our goal is to help everybody who has a desire to grow in web three to make it work. And my DMs personally, Sochi's mom, DMs are always open. Reach out to me. Reach out to the museum. We're really stoked on the future of this space. So I'm blessed to be able to be emceeing and hosting today. Alright. Well, we're gonna take a quick quick break, and, we've got our guests here that are joining in backstage. Super stoked for this next talk, which the topic is art discovery, art displays, and collecting versus gambling.
So we've got three incredible people. We have Steven Santoro, Benjamin Meadows, and Lynette Grant, all absolute amazing human beings. I'm super stoked for this. So let's give it a quick pause, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 11 Alright. Welcome, everybody. Nice. How are doing?
Speaker 11 What's going on? Excited to talk with you guys. This is gonna be an awesome panel. Three incredible people here. So for everyone watching, this panel is on art discovery, art displays, and the topic of collecting versus gambling, which definitely will be an interesting one. So to intro our panelists really quick, Lynette Grants, she is incredibly genuine soul. Definitely go and follow Musical Netta. You'll see the incredible write ups that she's doing on social media. I love seeing the write ups that you do, Lynette, on the masks of Lucy. Really awesome in-depth and very thought provoking. Her bio reads as an art collecting nerd who joined Web three because she ran out of wall space, an attack and data leader in real life. Really stoked to chat more with you, Lynette. We also have Steven Santoro who is the curator at Virtu Fine Arts.
He's been in crypto since 2017, and his bio reads as helping artists build careers, but he does way more than that. This is one of the most genuine people you can talk to around championing artists. The takes that Steven has, I have literally never had a conversation with him that I've ever left without thinking, wow. That just expanded my paradigm on how artists are building or how artists can operate and just incredibly thought provoking guy. Really stoked to have Steven with us here. And, of course, Ben Meadows, who we had on yesterday, was an incredible talk. Ben is one of the most well spoken people that I've heard from in the Web three space. He's a blockchain veteran and digital artist with over a decade of experience navigating the intersection of crypto and culture and experienced speaker and educator. Definitely experienced speaker. Really, really love hearing Ben talk.
Benjamin has exhibited his work at galleries and events around the world, and he served as a curator for established digital art organizations and a financial steward for major major community projects. But, again, these bios are just the surface of who these people really are. Incredible people. Blessed to be up here with y'all. So, yeah, let's go ahead and and dive on in. Welcome. How's everybody doing?
Speaker 9 It's that time of year where I think it's like you're essentially exhausted, but you're also fueled by all of the amazing, creativity, generosity of spirit, getting to see family. But I don't think I've spoken to anybody that's just like, yeah. Fire in on all cylinders. Absolutely not exhausted in any way, shape, or form, full of energy. So, I'm empowered and thrilled and energized to be here with all of you. But if I'm honest, there's a lot going on in the world.
Ben I I'm feeling a little more tired today, Lynette. I yesterday, I was standing. Today, I'm sitting. But, as I like to say, if I was any better, I'd be twins. So, you know, happy to be here with everybody.
Speaker 2 Yeah. Thanks for having me. I, still feeling burnt out from the shows and Basil and stuff, but, slowly getting back. And New York is freezing compared to Miami, so that's that's a change too. But, but excited to chat today.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I appreciate y'all being here, especially, you know, this time of year. Things are hectic inevitably with the holidays and everything around, but, you know, the more more the merrier. Right? The more craziness we can pile on in, the better. So thanks for being here. And in this talk for today, again, I will reiterate art displays or art discovery, art displays, and collecting versus gambling. So three different topics, but we're gonna talk about all of it. And starting off with art discovery, I really wanna pose a question around how people such as yourself are finding artists nowadays. For me personally, I hang out on x a lot, and that's where I do a lot of discovering of artists. Really, that's mostly it for me, actually. I haven't really you know, I mean, if you go somewhere like Art Basel, you'll probably really discover a ton of artists.
But I'm curious, like, on a day to day basis, how are you discovering new artists? And we can start with Lynette.
Speaker 9 So I think x is really where a lot of the people in our space are, so I think that's an amazing place to start. But what I kind of do, which is maybe cheating a little bit, is I find some of the most interesting art is collected by other artists. And so sometimes you just look at other artists' wallets, and you see what it is that they love. You go to the places where art is being sold. You follow artists. You see what they're posting that isn't their own, and I think you discover new worlds. And so I've spent a lot of time, I think, recently just looking at what other artists are collecting and who they're supporting because sometimes they see something you don't. Maybe they see something that's unique and how somebody created something, an innovative way of using the block chain, some sort of passion.
Like, I was listening earlier, and someone was saying, like, even if they're like, if you just feel the heart of something, you wanna collect it. And then I just go, and I'm like, what made them collect that? Were they sent that? Is that something they went out and got? Who else collects that person? So not just x. I mean, x may be the place you get started to, like, look at artists. But then you just kind of go there and you see their creations, but you also see what they own. And I think that's been a really interesting place for me to explore.
Speaker 11 Very interesting. And definitely not cheating to take a peek at these artists' wallets unless it's just a bunch of base x copies, which everyone seems to be getting. Besides me, actually. I haven't been getting sent them on base. Just a bunch of, like, fake x copy works. But I think that that's a really cool way of looking at it is you're kind of tapping into the network that they've created and, like, the taste that they've developed, especially if it's an artist you respect. So that's really cool. Ben, do you wanna chime in on that?
Ben Yeah. So I would say, you know, Twitter's a great place, right, in terms of it's just like a fire hose of information depending on who you're following, depending on what the algorithm's giving you. You know, you can you can things will surface that you haven't seen before. Right? Discord, same way. Right? There's some, groups and communities I'm in that can be helpful, or they can be a lot of noise, but sometimes they're helpful. IRL events, same thing. Right? You go to a MARFA or a Bazzle or and and you're gonna see things. Right? Even Bitcoin Vegas last year, you're gonna see stuff that you wouldn't see normally because you're physically there, and you stumble upon it and some things strike you. So IRL is always a thing. I think there are specific communities that are helpful for surfacing that sort of thing. Right?
You know, RD does a great job with his twenty four hours art community. Sometimes I will see things in the daily, you know, newsletter that I'm like, how did I miss that, or how did I not know about that? So that's that's a thing. You know, DMs are always a thing. Sometimes you get a new DM that, you know, you just totally missed. And, I mean, it happened the other day. An artist I know would like released something. I was too busy. I missed the DM, which tells you how much is out there that, you know, even a direct message to me, I missed. There's groups. Same thing. Right? Maybe you like fully on chain art, so you're in a group of fully on chain art people. Maybe you like Pepe art, so you're in a, you know, x chat all about Pepe art.
So, yeah, Telegram groups. There there's groups, you know, same thing that are a good spot. There's curation. Right? I mean, we're talking about with Steven here. You know? There's there's curation, and and I've gone down the curation rabbit hole. You know? There's a there's a new exhibition, and then I see an artist, and then I start looking at their past stuff. Next thing you know, I'm lurking wallets like Lynette. And, so that's another way. You know? I just kinda go down the rabbit hole and, and you find stuff. And sometimes it's old stuff. It's not always new stuff. So one thing that I would say we don't have right now, none of those are easy for a newcomer. Right? Like, that doesn't sound easy. If if somebody says I'm brand new, where do I find my art?
That sounded like a lot of time and a lot of and a hobby and a passion and a that didn't sound like here's the list of the top 100 artists. And some of that stuff is trite and a little too easy. It's the same people on the list. So I would say we we have a long way to go in terms of making discovery easier and more cohesive in some ways. It it takes a lot of work to to do good. And maybe that's part of the point of it. Maybe that's why there are curators, but I think, you know, you'd have a hard time finding some people in one place. You know? You'd be hopping around different exchanges and calories and chains and so
Speaker 11 yep. Steven, what do you think? Yeah. Because to Ben's point, you know, yeah, x is a fire hose of information for sure. I'm curious of your thoughts.
Speaker 2 Yeah. I'm, typically very slow in my process. Like, I need to when I see an artist I'm not familiar with, I'll go down the rabbit hole of where did they come from, what does their practice look like, wanna know a lot about their process, their background, what their interests are. And it takes, a long, long time to then make the jump to actually collect something, because I just really like to familiarize my myself with something. And then on the other hand, I also like to collect very deep with particular artists, so that discovery goes down channels in the particular artists that I kinda see reoccurring. But the discovery can be I can be inspired kinda anywhere in life, and that can lead me down weird, you know, weird angles of how I'm discovering, I'd say. So it could happen from a certain school that produces a good MFA program.
It could happen from a museum, and I find an artist, that I hadn't known about. And so I think that discovery is kind of, like, just training my eye to understand, like, why I like something and then go further down of, like, what it means to the artist. And that's kind of all, the pace moves a lot faster when it's an exhibition or a museum show or it's like a curator. Someone's bringing something to market. I find it significantly easier to kind of understand what's or interpret what's going on rather than finding something on my own. I'm I'm always kinda tricking myself out. But, yeah, inspiration's everywhere for me. The discovery process is, like, just my day to day of of being present here.
Speaker 11 I think a really cool thing about that, like, you know, taking it slow is you know, there's no need to rush when it comes to really discovering work that you like. And I think sitting with work is a brilliant thing. Like, in a in a space where things do move quickly, a lot of the time, I feel there aren't many opportunities to sit with art. And, of course, we can always make the choice to sit with art on our own. We can, like, look at something and go through a collection Like, Lynette, for example, sitting with each mask of Lucy in these posts that she's making. Like, that's that's sitting with art is sitting with it, learning it, like, learning the ins and outs of it, looking at it, admiring it. I think more opportunities to sit with art is awesome.
Like, I wanna make a quick shout out to OX Vestica, Mariah. Recently, she launched a collection. I might blank on the exact name of it, but I believe it was, like, diary of a neurotic mind. Might be wrong on that. But, basically, the point is she created a cool little, like, PDF with all of the works in it. And she directly messaged me and said, hey. Like, would you like to take a look at this? Ultimately, not exact words, but, and then sitting with it, I literally had a moment there, an opportunity given to me to sit with the work that this artist made. And I feel that more opportunities like that would be incredible, and I love that. Like, with the digital asset museum, when we do our curations, we create these curatorial portals ultimately that allow people to sit with each work individually, learn a bit about the artist.
So I'm curious, like, your guys' takes on that. Like, how often are you sitting with art in this fast paced realm of digital the digital world that we are in?
Speaker 9 Are we going in order again, or do you wanna supply?
Speaker 11 Yeah. Yeah. Sure. If you feel compelled to say something too, you can interject always. But, yeah, in order is perfect too.
Speaker 9 Yeah. So, because you mentioned the deep dives, I do sit with art seven days a week. I don't take holidays or weekends, or even trips to Disneyland off. And it was very intentional for me. I'm a person who, if I commit to something, don't need. Weekends and holidays, in fact, they are distracting. Like, if it's every day, then it's every day, like, working out the rest of it. There's a ritual, and there's a practice for me. But as you can see in my real life, because I did come here because I ran out of wall space, I sit with art every single day. It's a huge part of my life. I know what I want to surround myself with in my home. I know what I enjoy looking at that's not in my home. I know what I can appreciate even if I wouldn't necessarily go and look at it.
I'm like, wow. That is not my taste per se. Look at the skill that happened within that. And that happens because I do spend a lot of time with art every single day so that I know what my tastes are. I know, Steven, you were saying it takes you a long time to maybe make a decision to, you know, pull the trigger on something. Whereas for me, I feel like I'm very decisive. I'm like, yep. I love that. That is all coming to my house right now. Whereas, you know, I think if I wasn't spending as much time with art, if I didn't know what, even subconsciously, I was looking for, I might need a lot more time to be a lot more thoughtful and deliberate. Because there's just a feeling. Like, I've learned that your subconscious, you don't even have to put words on it, but it kind of knows.
And if you're willing to trust that kind of gut and not have to put words around it, not be able to be like, I bought this because because I can tell you right now, I bought that Lilo from Fifth Element because my second favorite color is orange. It's multimedia. It's, like, also pencil sketch. I love the the film, and it just was like, look at those eyeballs. Right? That just happened. And I saw it, and I knew I loved it. And then once I got it, I was able to be like, oh, now I can articulate it. So I would just say if there's a price point that you're comfortable with not having to do a bajillion amounts of research and you just love the art, maybe trust your gut. And then once you buy it and you get to sit with it, you can start to articulate what drew you to it.
There was a Noper piece I bought, and I remember getting reached out to by Alejandro and even by Noper. They're like, that's my favorite piece in the whole thing. And I was like, really? Why? And they're like, I don't know. There was something magical about it. And I was like, it lit up for me. The minute I went into there and I had my choice of all of them, it was the one that just had an aura around it, and it called me in. And so, I could talk a lot about that, but I will let other people jump in. I would just say trust yourself. If something draws you to something, if you open up a screen, if you look at a wall and something, like, stands out, trust yourself and then learn in retrospect. And I think you learn a lot about yourself even by that very act.
Ben So I loved what Lynette said. She's got a little more discipline than I do. As much as I'm normally very analytical and disciplined on some things, I'm way more intuitive when it comes to how much time I spend looking at art. I obviously look at some every day. Right? I'm I'm on the feed or I'm looking at things or but sitting with it is different. Right? So a few things that I do is I will oftentimes go back to a piece. Right? Maybe I know that I'm probably not gonna buy that or it's out of budget right now or whatever. I'll leave the tab open, and I'll keep going back to it. And just just, you know, going back and looking at the piece, you know, then then I make art. Right? And so sometimes, you know, that comes and goes. Right? There's ebbs and flows.
I'm not a full time artist, but I take a lot of photographs. I make a lot of things. The image I'm in front of is a photograph I took. I went on a hike this morning, took a bunch of photos. I'll sit with them, right, and and look through them and see if any are worth sharing, any are worth editing. So I do that with my own art, you know, whether it's collecting it, whether it's making it. I've always got I I added a couple of, things to my sort of wish list this morning. Right? Another artist shared something. I looked at it. It was an interesting collection. I I saved them somewhere to go back and look at later. No. I don't have time right now. I'm in the middle of working and a family in town. Oh, so there's a never ending list of things to look at.
When there is an exhibition with a PDF set, I'll often save it, you know, to my downloads folder. And when I have time, whether it's traveling or sitting in bed at night, sit with it and read through it. And I love doing that. Like I said, whether whether I'm gonna collect the piece or not, there's something to learn, right, whether it's, context about the artist or the pieces. And whenever I get a DM where somebody says, I've got a new collection coming out. Would you like to see it? The answer is always yes. Whether I have ten minutes to sit with it or an hour, of why wouldn't I wanna look at that, you know, and and sit with it? Even if, and I've said this before, there are artists that make me uncomfortable. Right? I would never put their work on their wall.
But that act of looking at it and being uncomfortable and and, you know, seeing what arises and what it makes me feel is in and of itself, you know, important or good or a purpose of art. I'm sure we will talk about displays in a little bit. And I do think, on one hand, art can interact with us in lots of different ways. As I'm sitting here at my desk, I've got art pieces literally sitting on the desk in front of me, and the drawer above me flattening. There's some, posters and things. I've got some that are framed, that are not on the wall yet, some that are on the wall. And then when it comes to someone asked me the other day, you know, what are your favorite pieces? Right? And some of them are physical and hanging on a wall, can go point to them.
And others, don't exist in the physical world, and there's such a disconnect there right now. I had to go pull it up, find the wallet, find the pieces, look through it. While I was doing that, I saw pieces I hadn't seen in a while that I forgot perhaps that I even had, and said, oh, hold up. Let's look at this. Why is this cool? What's neat about this? So, yeah, I think, obviously, I sit with art every day in some way, shape, or form, but it's different almost every day, whether in both quantitatively and qualitatively. And and I would hope most people do that. I I think it's a, you know, moral good at a certain level as a human being to sit with someone else's creative output or your own and and meditate on a little bit and take a little bit of time not being busy, not just swiping through the feed for two seconds, but actually sitting with it.
Go to an art museum. Right? How many people go to an art museum and sit with a piece nowadays? So I would encourage anybody listening to this, right, as we're talking about digital art that's very fast paced. Go. Go. Go. Slow down a little bit. Stop and look at a piece for a few minutes. Don't always just swipe onto the next one.
Speaker 2 I'll just add something quick. I think I'm a bit cursed in the way that I approach NFTs and digital art because I came from the world of painting and printmaking. And those worlds just they move like molasses compared to to this world. And my habits and behavioral, you know, the way that I my the actions that I take to collect have not changed in this rapid world, and I think there's good and bad to that. The bad side, I I miss a lot of things. I just cannot make that rapid fire decision to be like, I wanna mint this, and I to make it in the next twenty minutes or or I won't get it. I think I'd most of the time, probably 99% of the time, I just don't I just don't get it.
And the beauty, though, of that is that I get to sit with the work naturally and think about it and revisit it. And it's I think the beauty of our world, and I think it's often misconstrued, is that these things are always available. It's not like they go into vaults and we never see them again. We can we can revisit them as much as we want. And to even further that point, we can also buy them whenever we want, because a lot of things are you know, I think it drives me insane when people are like, this is your last chance to get this artwork. It's like, that's not true. This artwork's gonna be available for a very, very long time. And so that thinking, that process, that things just take time and, I may miss things, I've I've learned to be okay with that and, and follow through with that.
Speaker 9 Something you said just kind of, triggered something in my brain, Steven, because what actually got me into even physical art collecting was the poster world. And the poster world to me is probably one of the most, similar, I think, to NFTs in that, there is a limited nature aspect. There is almost a gambling aspect of it in some ways. Like, you try and think, like, is this poster's floor gonna go up? Right? It's the one of the few places in art where you do have that quick buy. And I because I came to physical art through that, and it's like, you know the poster of that particular artist, that particular band, that gig poster, that movie poster will sell out in seconds. You've got somebody who's gonna bought it. You've got somebody who's, like, you know, done that particular element, and you do have to move very, very quickly.
So I think even in that physical space, because they came through poster collecting, there is still that sense of urgency. And I think it's really interesting because when I was thinking about how to compare a physical collecting medium to NFTs, I think poster collectors really have it right because it's about the art. Like, they are rabid about the artists that they love, the art that they love, the mediums that they love. But they found a way to also economize it too. Like, it's got a very healthy secondary market. Right? They get together and they commission artists that they love or properties they love. And I just think that maybe there's something we can learn from that community to maybe onboard more people, I think, in our NFT space because they found a way to not make it pure gambling and to keep it about the art, but all to also have that kind of secondary market action.
And they do it with, like, no tools whatsoever. Like, every single one of those groups is in one of those, like, AOL chat rooms from the nineties where you can't even type in, like, regular? It's just like you have to know HTML to even put a smiley face in. And those markets are so, so healthy, and the art coming out of them is so, so beautiful. So, anyway, it was an aside, but it kind of reminded me in that printmaking world that, you know, in that space, there is still a lot of, like even in traditional art, very quick, very time bound natures of collecting that I think also would translate well into what we do here in the digital space.
Speaker 2 Just to add one more thing, I've also just fallen in love with the process of making art. And so, like, diving into process with our like, the beauty of our space too is we get to, you know, most of the time, talk directly with these artists. And so to understand those influences and where the work comes from and what it means to them, that's also, like, kind of takes a little bit to kinda understand that whole realm and and what this work really means and why I wanna own it in the first place. And so getting to the bottom line of that is, definitely takes me a little longer than than most.
Speaker 11 Really, really love this conversation. So, like, ultimately, the concept of having a secondary market and I know we're gonna talk more about the gambling versus collecting side of things, but I think it also does intent or entice a collector when you know that there is some sort of secondary market. It kind of makes things a little bit easier in some ways. Not all the time, obviously. It doesn't always matter. If you love the work, you're gonna buy it, and you don't have any intention on selling it. But I do think that that's an interesting topic. I think we'll revisit back on that. One thing I did wanna mention that Ben touched on was making wish lists. I find that to be one of the most fun parts of going down the rabbit hole with, like, collecting is just like, okay. Like especially too on, like, the object platform.
Really, really cool discoverability on that platform specifically. I wish that there was something like that for Ethereum art. I don't find that the community is really the same. OpenSea doesn't really offer that, but, I love making wish lists and then going through, and my tabs get, like, so small. They're, like, microscopic, and then you, like, go through every single one. And, you're like, okay. Well, not this one. And, okay. I'll leave this one and then come back to it. It's just such a fun thing. So, like, I think that, just going through the process of collecting is so exciting when you set funds aside to expand your collection. It's always a fun time. Talking about, like, the display side of collecting, do you guys think about how you're gonna display the works that you collect? Is that part of the process of you buying a work?
Is that you wanna display it? You could display works without owning them, but, you know, in the traditional art world, you aren't typically able to do that. So I'm curious on how you feel about displaying works. Does it make an influence on how you collect? And do you feel like you have in home currently a sufficient way to display art? And we can start with Steven, and then we'll go back on the other way around.
Speaker 2 Well, I'll start with I'm very interested in artists that are interested in, like, many mediums. So it's not solely on chain. It's not solely, you know, digitally painting or three d, whatever the digital media is. Maybe they also are experimenting with printmaking or painting or, sculpture. Like so I guess that where that stems from, that interest then leads me down. Well, okay. Well, if they're making physical objects, then that's, what I kind of want to display. And my digital collection is always being displayed. It's it'll just exists online and that's anyone can see it. I can enjoy it. And that's the beauty of it. So, personally, I like to live with tangible objects and give my eyes a break from screens. That's how I prefer to appreciate my art. But I don't think there's one right or wrong
Speaker 2 to do it. I mean, that's maybe not true with the black bars and stuff, but that's just my preference.
Ben So display of art is something I've thought about for a long time from a technical standpoint. So I think, first of all, there's some technical constraints right now. So well, let me let me step back first. I'm terrible about displaying my digital art in my home. I'm good about physical art, but I'm I just haven't found something that I'm happy with in terms of having a on a display on a wall or something like that. And part of that is because, you know, what's the right size for it to be displayed at? Right? What's the resolution? Does it not have a resolution? What's the ratio? Like, how should that piece be properly displayed? And we talked about it briefly yesterday. Not every display is high enough resolution, large enough in size, has enough contrast, just gets bright enough, you know, to to show what the artist intended.
Then you get into motion. Right? I mean, I just released a piece today that is an animated vector image. I don't even know if most displays can properly render that, you know, and and show it in the proper way, the a fully on chain animated vector image that should have very fast, you know, frames moving. And so you get to, you know, what did the artist intend? How did they intend for it to be seen? And so I don't think we're there yet, and I think that's a huge missing piece. Right? People buy pieces for a million dollars, and they sit in their wallet. You know? They don't they don't they don't have it on a wall on a, you know, seven foot TV with super high you know? Anyway, so I do think we've got a lot of room.
And then there's also, kinda what Steven was, referring to with the physical aspect. So I I remember talking to ACK about this a long time ago about his piece, made these for your girl. Right? And it's a motion. You know, it's a moving piece, and yet he made prints of it. Right? But if I was gonna do that personally, you know, I don't know what he intended. How big is it supposed to be? What are the colors supposed to look like? What frame is he actually going to put on the print? So there is a place for physical pieces, to exist with the artist, you know, and their intention behind it. And then the last thing I'll say is I think we're going to see the display and interaction with some of this art change over the coming decades. Right?
Right now, we're talking about something on a wall or a screen that you look at. Maybe it's a small screen on your computer. Maybe it's a big screen. But as we think about where the world's going with XR and AR and VR, and I have a personal thesis that says that the digital piece will become more important long term. If people natively begin to wear augmented devices, right, why on earth would you waste your money putting a piece on a wall if you always have your XR contact lenses and your glasses on? Why would you ever put something on the wall that can fade or get destroyed, that's hard to transfer, when everybody that walks into your house, if we if we map this correctly, if it's cryptographically proven, who owns it, can see the thing sitting on your wall just as if it's in the real world.
Why would you wear, a designer shirt that wears out over time if you could have one overlaid on you, you know, that everybody sees? So I think the future is faster and weirder than we think it will be, and I think we will we may see the digital supplanting the physical in our lifetimes, but not on a little screen that we're holding up to our face, you know, not on our phone screen. So I think this is sort of a transitory issue, and it may solve itself in a couple decades.
Speaker 9 So I will go into, I think, my philosophy of why the blockchain in general, and then I'll get to displays. So the reason why I did come here was because I ran out of wall space, and a friend was like, hey. We have so many flat files underneath our bed. And at that point, my friend had, like, a warehouse of things he was keeping. And he was like, we should get an NFTs because, you know, we don't have to store them. And so, but when I started looking at the concept of blockchain, I am very, very, like, convicted that we are in a bit of a digital dark age. And what I mean by that is, like, if I think about it, you know, I'm kind of in that generation next space. When I first started, I bought every single physical camera I could.
I went and I developed my film all the time. I wrote letters to people. I had a box full of cards I got from pen pals, and there was this way that we could tell our stories. And I think in the space of, like, twenty years, like so I went from having a camera to putting my stuff on MySpace and Black Planet. I don't know where any of those things are. Like, I lost entire years of my life pictures that I took places that I went, and I don't know that I even know how to get them back. Maybe I can go to the way back machine and find my profile. Right? Letters that I would have written to someone, I put it in email in like, you know, I had an X site email. Who knows where that email is?
I don't even know the friends that I had That particular space. Right? And I think the things about humanity is that you look through spaces and the way that we permeate and the way that we're able to leave a legacy is that we have something concrete to be able to tell our stories. And I do believe that the blockchain is going to be the way that we tell our stories. And I do believe that it's going to take something mainstream that's gonna make the blockchain a thing that happens. So I look at medical records. I have a complex medical history, and I think about, like, I had this folder I used to carry around. And I was like, here, I am complex. And then it was like, here's this CD. And then now there's no CDs places.
It's like I'm like, I've got this CD, and they're like, I can't do anything with that. And then I'm like, well, I've got this little, like, you know, thumb drive, and they're like, I'm not putting that on my computer. And I'm like, well, where is my medical history? Right? So what's gonna happen is medical is gonna be like, we need a place for patients to be able to follow this information. And once they do that, everybody's gonna follow. Right? That's how it works. But for now, how are we telling our stories? How are these people that are communicating that don't wanna pick up a paintbrush that are actually making digital art? We talk about Sam Sprat, like a digital painter. Like, where are these sketches at? Where is this work gonna happen? So we, as humanity, always look for a place to tell our stories, and I believe the blockchain is that.
And I think that when you look at displaying it, in order for us to live with our stories and to be able to tell our past, we have to find a number of ways to do that. So much what Ben said that we will have different things. But for instance, I buy some pieces that are just looping and they make a similar sound. There's a Summer Wagner piece where there's just dice that are rolling in her hand, and that's this beautiful little sound. Right? I bought a piece off of sedition before blockchain was even there, and it was just this one piece that was a clock going around in time. And it almost looked like something was going to explode, it stops right before then. And I would have that on loop in my, you know, on my computer, and that would be, like, the thing that I needed to achieve flow state.
I think that there's going to be digital pieces that we come up with that we need specific ways to display them. Some are gonna be on a computer screen. The piece that DK did for me is on my phone screen. Every single time I open this up, I wanna see DeCappo. I wanna know that there's this conductor and that there's this place that in my life is being measured. I don't watch as much TV. I go through seasons where, like, I'm either a gamer girl or I'm either a TV person, and I'm in my gamer girl era right now. So I don't wanna use my TV as a screen to have it on all the time. So I do think we like, e ink displays are doing some amazing things where you can see really vibrant colors, and they don't have to be backlit.
So I think we, as humans, will have a variety of ways to live with the art that we've purchased and experienced the things. Look at Snowfro and DCA's, like, most recent drops. They're meant to be interactive. So, like, if I put them on a screen, I won't be getting everything that they're supposed to come with. In order for me to play them as a video game, I'm going to need maybe a Steam Deck or a console. So I think just like in our physical world, I have five, you know, video game consoles over here next to me. If that's what I'm drawn to, I am going to have the item and the display mechanism to be able to interact with art in that way, much like we do today, and digital art is going to follow that particular space.
I realized that was a bit of a rant, and I went through the history of all the things. But I do think displaying is going to be personal. It's going to be dependent on the experience the artist intends us to have, and there won't be just one size fits all. I do have a display that's coming that will hopefully me live with art. And my biggest question, which I can't find anywhere, is does it have sound? Because as a musician, I have a lot of things that have sound, and the sound is important to me. So I think in order for us to truly solve display, it's not just gonna be what does it look like. It's going to be how am I, as the person who purchased it, supposed to interact with it? Am I supposed to listen to it?
Like, look at, I don't know if it's eggshells or that's how you serename eggshells, but it's like hers like, have this motion in that, right, where you needed to be in front of it and then interacted with you. There's no display right now. They can do that. Right? So I think that there's a lot of opportunity for a lot of places to come in and think about how to partner with artists to have experiences, not just this static relationship.
Speaker 11 Wow. A lot of really, really intriguing points there. Really, really interesting to think about how it might evolve. I mean, I probably could count on one hand the amount of people I know that have a dedicated display in their home for art. I personally have one that I converted from a token frame, which is no longer in business. Token frame, they shut down their operations. Along with that, they shut down their interface for basically interacting with the frame, which it used to be only that you could display works that you own. But then I had to, like, basically jailbreak it and put white walls into it. So it's like the resistance of doing that for the average individual is just too way too cumbersome, let alone the frame is incredibly cumbersome in and of itself. It's heavy. It's not easy to mount on the wall.
But, you know, it's interesting to see, like, solutions like white walls, turn any TV into a display. Do we really want to display on our TVs? Well, that's another question. You know, token frame is literally looks like an an artwork. So it has, like, a matte around it and, like, an actual mine has a mahogany frame. But these are just interesting concepts to think about because I really enjoy displaying art. I think that it's the best part for me about collecting something is knowing that I can now display it. I even display works that I don't own all the time. I display a lot of Alf Centauri kid works that, like, GIFs that are just perfect for display. So it's interesting to hear your perspectives, Lynette, because I I think that we are gonna get very crafty with how we display stuff, and it's gonna be interesting to see the solutions that emerge around displaying.
So, yeah, I'm curious if anyone has any takes on any of that or on anything that Lynette said just now, if you wanna riff on that. But, yeah, it's just fascinating.
Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, Lynette said it so beautifully. There's like, I I was in agreement on so many parts of that. The only part that I really wanted to add was, like, I think it's super important that the artist is just very intentional with how they want it to exist. And, obviously, they cannot control for all of that, but it's always been probably my number one, thing that I'll consider when collecting something is, like, how does the artist want this to exist, or why did they want this to exist? And then kinda follow suit from there. I hate when I'm posed with, like, different paper sizes or framing options. It's like, well, what do you think is the best? And and that's what I that's how I wanna live with it. So intentionality is is very important to me.
Ben The the one story that comes to mind in terms of displaying art is I've seen art display badly. I've mentioned that yesterday. I've literally seen, you know, market marketplaces just destroy the the art. You know, you look at at at the frame rate or the resolution or and you look at the compression, and, you know, you look at it, and then you go on chain and and you blow it up and you see what's actually on our Weave or IPFS or and, sort of gets my,
Ben know, gets my blood pressure up, right, sometimes because you're like, oh my gosh. This poor you know, this artist put all this intentionality and all this technicality, into this piece, and then, you know, it's not being transmitted properly to the viewer. Right? And and it's losing something or it's missing something. Conversely, I remember at MARFA in 2024, Glenn, I think you were there. We got to see it together. Jeremy Booth had some of his pieces that he was, displaying with Maker's Place, and they were on these beautiful, token frames. And they looked incredible. And I hadn't seen, a piece of art, his art specifically, displayed in that way. But in the real world, in person, on this beautiful frame, it it just looked different. It hit different, right, than seeing it on even though I've got a very nice computer screen, it was very different in real life to see them sitting there in front of me as a set, animated on a good display.
And so, yeah, we've still got a long way to go, I guess, is what is what I'm saying when it comes to that.
Speaker 11 Yeah. It's a topic that I think is very fascinating, and it really I feel like we could talk a lot about it because there are so many different paths. And I'm always curious to hear how people feel about displaying art in their home that is digital because right now, there really is no good solution for it. In my opinion, the best solution is a token frame. But, like, outside of that, projectors like, my token frame, if I put an x copy on it that moves too quickly, it can't keep up with it. If I put a Sam Sprat on it that has too much resolution, it will crash, and then I have to actually unmount it. And that is difficult. So it ends up being crashed, and then I have to do work, and then I have to paint the wall because it, like, scratches it when I take it off.
It's very, not ideal. But it's the problems that you deal with in a an industry that is just budding and just beginning in many ways. So I'm very eager to see the solutions. I will shout out Black Dove as a really cool solution for custom displays in home. They do a lot of custom displays, and they work one to one with clients to create the right display. They also have an app that you can display work. But outside of displays, I wanna talk now about the last part of this talk with the remaining time we have, which is collecting versus gambling. Because as someone you know, I respect all three of you as collectors and, people in this space that I really trust your takes and opinions. And I'm wondering your thoughts on where does collecting end and gambling begin?
Because there is, like, this kind of overlap in between the two in the space of digital art, I believe. And I'm wondering your thoughts on on that question. Where does collecting end and gambling begin when it comes to web three and digital art?
Speaker 9 The only reason I'm gonna go first is because I'm gonna have the least to be able to offer on the gambling side of this. So, I have the most diamond hands you've ever seen. Like, my birthstone is diamond in April, and I think it's, like, my soul. I have sold one thing one thing in all of the years I've been collecting, and and it was a Boss Beauty to get another Boss Beauty. So it varies similarly in regular art. Even if I buy extras of a poster, I wind up giving it away versus selling it, things like that. And so for me, it's never been about the gambling. I have a very collector spirit. And so you can see behind me is just an amalgamation of the things that I love and, physical things or how I share and show love.
So that's why if you've met me, you've gotten a little dice, and, like, the tokens just keep going. So, but I will say the one thing that bothers me a little bit about this space, which is why it's it was a hard transition for me to collect, is that everything on my wall that's in here from a poster to a hand drawn something, I did not buy with any intention other than loving it. I didn't buy it because I thought floor go up. I didn't buy it. Like, I bought that because I love Princess Leia, right, and Star Wars. I love, you know, Bruce Lee. I didn't buy anything and be like, oh, I hope that that's at least worth the $50 I paid for it, or, oh my goodness, it better not drop below the $600 I paid for it.
And I think it just puts such a a hard thing on artists who just do what they love. And you don't have to buy it. You don't have to buy it. You don't have to do anything. And you do it, and then you're just like, why floor price go down? And it's kind of infuriating to me. Like, even again, coming from posters where, you know, you you buy it and, like, some of the posters I have, they're worth thousands of dollars now. And I did not spend more than $50 for it. Right? But the rarity of the poster, maybe the medium or the subject matter of the poster made it go up. Gig posters, maybe there's some variant that happened on that date or something happened.
But I think in our space, because we do have people who came from gambling and maybe the token and the crypto of it, it does put, I think, an unfair pressure on creatives to feel like they have to do something other than just do what they love, and that's make art. And I know that that's a hot take. I know that a lot of people will be able to feel like, you know, because they're in this space, there's an aspect to that. But I just want to collect, and I want artists to feel free and unencumbered to just explore their practice and to do what they love. And so I think that's why it was important for me to talk about it because I think we should not do that to artists because it can crush their spirits.
And I think we've lost people in our space who just haven't been able to handle that pressure.
Ben So I've got a saying I like to, say about a lot of things in life. Right? It's that there's a road, and there's a bitch on both sides of it. Right? And so back to Satoshi's point, I think it's really easy to get to the extremes. Right? And and we can clearly see what's gambling on one side and what's extreme collecting on the other side. Right? The collector that's gonna die with his pieces or donate it to a museum, that's clearly collecting for the sake of collecting. Right? And then you've got, you know, you got the story of the old couple that, you know, saved art their whole life, and then they die, and they find out that they have a collection worth $10,000,000, you know, or, and they never sold any of it. They donated it to a museum or something.
And then you've got the gambler that, you know, is expecting to flip it for a profit five minutes later. Right? There's no expectation to even hold it in their wallet for very long. And that's clearly gambling. Right? You're not collecting at that point. If you're planning on flipping it same day, I don't think many people would say, wow. What a great collector. So I think, obviously, the the commonality there is time frame. Right? And so and it's a scale. Right? It it's a so is it a collector if you hold it for a year and you flip it for a profit? Were you a gambler? Just a a more forward thinking gambler. So for me, I generally do not collect with an expectation of profit with a time frame of less than, say, a decade. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Doesn't mean I haven't sold a piece before, and less than that, but that's generally if I'm gonna buy it, I plan to keep it for a long time. Ten years is damn near an eternity in crypto. Right? Like, that's but, you know, I look at a very long time now. Do I hope that my collection in ten, twenty years, thirty years when I'm an older, you know, man is worth much more than it is today? Well, I'd hope so. The dollar will be worth less. Right? If it doesn't, we've got a problem. But, sure. I hope that. But I expect most of them will probably get to zero. That'd be because a few pieces and a few artists have done well or are significant or cool one of ones or but mostly, I buy because because I love it. Same reason I make art. Right?
I don't make art to make money. I make it because I wanna make it. I wanna push myself, whether that's, you know, in terms of artistic practice or to say something or, to learn something new. Same thing is true of collecting. Right? I don't wanna collect the same thing all the time. I don't it's not my job to collect art and flip art. You know? I'm not a I'm not a art dealer full time. So for me, I think it's a time frame. Right? The thing that distinguishes a collector from a gambler ultimately is time frame. Really short time frame gambler, really long time frame collector, and then we can argue about all the shades of gray in between.
Speaker 2 I'm in total, agreement with Lynette and Ben. I'm just gonna take a little bit of a different stance on this and that I do look at the art world and NFTs. Digital art are definitely, like, speaking on those specifically. It's all at least this is how I approach it is, like, it's all a gamble to an extent. Nothing is promised here. The value is the belief and faith that the people collecting it, that it, you know, that it's worth that that amount. And a lot of the mechanics that a lot of people set up in this way are forms of gambling. And whether we like the art or not, it's like it's presented as so. And so you can't you know, I don't blame people necessarily for taking maybe a different mindset. Do I agree with it? Maybe not.
But the way that I wanted to contextualize gambling was in the sense that there are no promises. Like, artists sell things because they need to make money to survive, to live, to keep making art, to you know, if if they have a long career, then maybe their stuff will be worth it. Right? We hope so. But if they're just you know, they they can't even put the time into to make the best work that they possibly can, their odds are just so much slimmer. So taking that chance, gambling a little bit on our artists, whether you're gonna buy or sell is a different story. Like, I encourage that a little bit. You know? Take a chance. Don't just think you're gonna make money on it, but that might help push someone to to new heights.
And so I just wanted to contextualize gambling in that sense a little bit that the value is is this perception that we have. It's subjective. It can change very rapidly in that, no one's promising you things are gonna go up, and that's certainly not been the case in the past few years.
Speaker 9 You know what? I love that, Steven, because even in thinking about that, I think the person you gamble on, though, might be yourself. When I look at just, like, my physical art collection, I have always had a price point. And when I say, oh, man, I just buy that thing, it's because I buy, like, emerging and up and coming because I don't always have the budget to go a little bit higher. Right? And so, you know, for at least my physical art aspect, I would buy something. And, like, I have a hallway full of an artist by the name of Scott Lisfield who is a painter of astronauts. And my first piece from him was $500, probably the most fun money I had spent on a physical art piece, but I just loved it. It was Hal. It was Pepsi. It was great space you know, some Kubrick in there.
And now I can't afford him, and he's my friend. Like, right, like, his stuff goes for $5,000 apiece. I got in at 500, and I know that I have a good eye. If I go to an art show, I go to the LA Arch every year, I'm like, lenticulars, baby. It's about lenticulars. If I go, there's lenticulars in almost every booth. So it's like, I have a really good understanding, I think, of what good art is. And what I've learned is that I am always a safe bet. And I think if you go in as Collector and you know you, then there is no losing because you bought something that you loved and that you believed and that you're convicted in, and you'll start to be able to trust yourself. And so I find that doesn't quite equate with digital art, but it's starting to.
Like, I was talking, I think, to about to give me the day, and I was like, it is flower season. And sure enough, the next couple of major things were all flowers. And I'm like, birds are coming. And I went on to fellowship, and there was, like, an artist, a new one that's coming out that's got this really cool piece with birds in black and white. So I think what I would say is when you're when you're looking at yourself, you're the only person you're really gambling on. Do you love what you've purchased enough to have enough conviction to be an evangelist for that person? And are you going to buy the things that you love or sit with them? And I do think if I love something and I invest in them and when I say invest, I just mean, like, I wanna support you.
I want you to able to make art tomorrow. If I trust myself, I don't think I can really go wrong with that. Go ahead, Ben. I saw you come up with me.
Ben Oh, I'm gonna riff on something Steven and Lynette said for a minute that I didn't think about. Right? And and and the point is very valid. Right? There's an old joke about, you know, investing in dead artists is so much safer, right, because they can't do anything stupid. Right? And and it's true. Right? There there is there are two ways in which we are gambling by being in an early emergent market. Right? Number one, the artists are living. Right? And if if Grant Yun goes out and decides to start murdering puppies tomorrow, I've got a feeling his floor price is going to go down. Right? Not only that. Right? We're gambling on the technology. Right? We're gambling on Ethereum, on Bitcoin, on Solana, on Tezos on.
And so we are taking a gamble on the idea that this stuff's gonna be around, that this is the future, that, you know, blockchain and digital and cryptographic art is the future, and will exist in the future. So, in that way, I agree, Lynette. We're gambling on ourselves. We're gambling on our views of the future. We're gambling on these living artists. So that's an interesting counterpoint to to collecting.
Speaker 11 So many amazing points. This has been such a good talk. Whenever you have the opportunity to have three incredible people like this altogether riffing on topics, it's amazing. And usually, I feel like it's reserved for those moments where you're in an IRL event and you're kinda like there's you know, everyone's kinda left after, and then we're all chatting, going back and forth. And that's when these kinds of conversations seem to, like, happen. But being able to recreate something like this digitally really is so special. And I just have so much appreciation for all three of y'all coming here and spending time out of your day to share your wisdom, share your takes, and really do it for the public good. It it really means a lot to me and to the digital asset museum and to all the 652 people that are live watching this right now.
That's it's just been such an amazing time, and I really appreciate all of you guys. This has been incredible. I really look forward to listening back on this one and just catching the things that I might have not gotten to fully glean from the initial listen. This has been incredible. So thank you guys for coming through and discussing on these topics. Really means a lot, and I appreciate you all. Grateful for it.
Speaker 9 Thanks for having me. I feel very seen. I felt very honored that you've included me on a number of things, and you're doing pretty cool things out here yourself, my friend.
Ben Yeah. This was a blast again today, and it was fun seeing people that I have talked to in real life, and we've had some of these discussions. So great seeing Lynette and Steven again, and, yeah, see you guys, later. Thank you again, for what the Digital Asset Museum is doing. Love the mission, and I've really enjoyed these conversations.
Speaker 2 Thank you, Fred. See you around.
Speaker 11 See you guys. Appreciate you. Thank you so much. We'll go ahead and we'll move into this next chat, in just a moment here. I see our guests are starting to join in the backstage. So, let me make sure that these messages, that these links are going out and everyone's got them. I see Nahiko. Our next talk is an a super exciting one. Definitely a really awesome talk to end the day on. We're gonna be doing a panel on blockchain as a medium. But the three people that we have as panelists are absolute legends. We have Marca, Peng, and Naiko. These are three people who have really pushed the limits of the blockchain. Naiko's really like, your recent launch, we'll talk more about this. But consistently, just looking back at these projects that Naiko has done is just absolutely incredible.
Stoked to dive in more on this, and, we'll go ahead and get started. We'll take a quick break, and then we will dive back in. I appreciate y'all. We got 655 people around the world watching live right now. That's absolutely incredible, and I'm so stoked to, get into this next talk. So take a quick break, and we will be right back.
Speaker 11 Alright. What's going on, everybody?
Speaker 11 on, dude? Look at these legends. Look at these handsome legends.
Speaker 11 It's probably, like, one 1AM, 3AM over where Marco's at right now. It's
Speaker 4 It's 9AM. You guys Oh. Oh. You guys just yeah. You you just can't figure out Australian time thing.
Speaker 11 Welcome, everyone. Nahiko, welcome. Hang, Marco, I appreciate y'all being here.
Speaker 11 Stuck for this. Alright. So we can go ahead and get into it. I know we did spill over a little bit from last talk. I appreciate you guys and your patience with getting in. Thank you so much again for being here. A quick intro for you guys. Massive respect for all three of you, first of all. Super stoked for this chat and super stoked to end day two on this chat. Just quick intros. Marca, a fully on chain builder that has been addicted to the NFT space since early twenty twenty one, founder of Chonks, which is absolutely awesome, incredible project. Go check out Chonks if you haven't. Peng, another absolute legend of this space, a builder artist working where art breaks and technology leaks. He says he uses blockchain code and imagery to explore disruption, control, and collapse, pushes things until they break because failure is the foundation of success.
Peng is an incredible human being, an awesome, awesome guy, and, I love seeing his work on the timeline. And Nahiko, artist, hacker, magician, exploring the intersection of art code and innovation. Always surprised by Nahiko's projects that he launches. There's always more than meets the eye. I'm really stoked to chat with all three of you guys on this topic because you guys are really people who are constantly pushing the limits of what you can do with the blockchain. And, I'm excited to just kinda kick things off with some general questions, some things that I noted down, and I'm excited to talk about. So the blockchain itself being a medium, it's different than just for for the person listening, it's different than just making an NFT and then saying, okay. Like, I minted this NFT. Now it's on the blockchain.
Well, in the reality of it is when you mint an NFT traditionally, you're basically, setting up something where you can point to that image or file as being on chain. However, it's not actually on the blockchain itself. It's maybe being hosted on IPFS or on Arweave. These are file platforms. Basically, you could think of them as where you would say, hey. That's the the NFT itself is just pointing to that direction and saying this is where that image lives. Now using the blockchain as a medium, that's something completely different. That's really actually having the art exist in the chain. You can think of it as on the chain. So, you know, I'm probably butchering the explanation of it. We can really leave it to you guys to explain more about how you view the blockchain as creating being able to create something that without the blockchain, you wouldn't be able to have done.
So, like, to start this off, I wanna pose this question. How does thinking of the blockchain as a medium change how artists approach creating? And we can kinda go around in bit by bit, but people can feel free to interject as well. But let's start with Peng. How do you feel about my explanation, my my kind of butchered explanation, first of all? But secondly, how do you think the blockchain as a medium really changes the way you would approach creating when thinking of it this way?
Speaker 12 Okay. So for me, it's a lot like building fully on chain artwork. It's it's not something where you can create the art and then make it use the blockchain. You have to do it to begin with. It changes the entire process from the beginning to the end because, the way I like to think about it is, can this artwork exist anywhere else? If it can exist anywhere else in any form, then I am I'm not really using the blockchain to its its full, you know, full potential.
Actually, I don't think actually, I think your explanation, you didn't butcher it at all because blockchain is a medium, means something different for a lot of us because I don't think we've even we've we're just scratching the surface of what's actually able to be done utilizing the blockchain, not just as, you know, provenance and and storage and things like that, but, you know, making the artwork really come alive by using aspects of the blockchain that that doesn't really exist anywhere else, things that are just blockchain native, whether that be, like, you know, artwork that changes over time from reading blockchain data or artwork that's artwork that's pulling from a bunch of different contracts in order to utilize, you know, either CCO or other things that are already stored on the blockchain. I I think there's just there's just so many paths to creating art on the blockchain.
I don't think there is any one definition because I think we're all kind of using it in different ways. And then every day, people are discovering new ways to use the blockchain. I I mean, there's just well, you know, we got the legend market in here in chunks, which I I would consider chunks absolutely using the blockchain as a medium as as is the the pond from Nikko. That one where, you know, the the bids and the different, you know, lilies were added to it. All of these things are using blockchain as a medium. And I think that's you know, if what we're doing here is really going to be an art movement, it has to be something that hasn't existed before and probably can't exist outside of this space.
If it's really going to be a movement, it has to be something that, you know, changes the face of art by and and by utilizing the technology that's available that, you know, really, haven't even started scratching the surface of.
Speaker 11 Marco, what do you think about that? What do you think about how, like just even, like how would you explain using the blockchain as a medium?
Speaker 4 Yeah. I think well, Peng Peng nailed it. He has a he has a bit of a practice on talking. Unlike me, I haven't been on space as much, but I think he absolutely nailed it. That's what I always say. It's it's doing shit that can't be done before or can't really be done elsewhere at all. You know, it and it comes in so many forms as as Peng said. You know, composability is something that I love, and that's basically, you know, what I call soccer fishing onto other art or other projects. And, again, it it can't really be done. So I I guess what comes to mind is degenerative games that I built, which is you know, it uses it uses the art of autoglyphs. It talks to their contract.
It gets the actual art, and then it uses that art as a seed for a game of life, Conway's game of life as cellular automata, and that game lasts for eighty three years. And so I remember sitting down with my normie friend, my best mate, who, you know, has heard me talk about NFTs since '21, and they all think I'm insane. But when that launched, I remember sitting down explaining it. He goes, oh, okay. Oh, wow. I get it. Yeah. Like, I I I that sounds fun. That sounds different. That sounds like something I've never heard before. And I just I just don't think that can be done anywhere else. You know what mean? An artwork that will just continuously change, and that is is only exists because of another artwork. And it's not you're not remixing. You're not copy past copy pasting.
You're not you know, it's something completely different. If somehow autoglyphs was hacked or died, then my project would hack and die. So it's like an umbilical cord to to to autoglyphs. So that's just one aspect of it, the composability. What Nikiko did recently with the pawns, You know, obviously, financialization and the crypto side of things comes into a lot of this, but I I think it's something that, again, Jack Butcher and Jaleel do so well, like, is is bringing that monetization, bringing that being able to bid or buy into the art as well. Like, again, that hasn't really existed before. Right? Like, people buy an artwork, and no one knows who bought it. No one knows where it is.
And so I think we're only just scratching the surface with with all of that, and this this this is so many more things that are that are possible Like what you did and, Bushy are doing with breaking stuff and, you know, it's just I'm still as infatuated with smart contracts and our and what we can do today. And I still I I do get sometimes a bit I don't know. Like, everyone does. Right? Like, if there's you know, there's so much crap out there, but, you know, it's still super exciting. And and the people on this on this space and the people you've had overall in in the in the on the the summit. They're pushing the boundaries, what we saw recently with the Internet systems with Super Rare's exhibition. That was incredible, those projects, what what Ponder was involved with as well.
So so, yeah, it's it's exciting, and it means so many things. And and I I think we just all have to keep pushing pushing it out. You know, it no one else is gonna do it. We're the only people that really gotta do it. There's there's dozens, like, unfortunately, that probably can do it. And and some people have, I think, felt like I feel like they've sort of given up on it as well. It's like, oh, we've done everything we can. No. We haven't. We've only just touched the surface. You know I mean?
Speaker 11 Yeah. I agree. Especially on that last point of just touching the surface, I feel like I'm constantly learning when I see, like, people like you guys and, like, did, for example, with his recent piece that literally surpassed the record for the largest on chain artwork over 10 megabytes on chain by chaining together all of these hundreds of transactions, I believe, to be able to create the final piece. That's just incredible. These are innovations that like, putting this work on chain, meaning that there's no external source where it could break. It's existing there as a way of being incredibly permanent. And I think there's more eloquent eloquent ways to put it. I feel like even myself, like, I've minted things on chain. I've used DIDs tool, the DIDs on chain minting tool to be able to put things on chain.
But the constraints of having to make your artwork very small in order to fit it into the transaction to mint it makes you think outside of the box as an artist. It's not just pick up the paintbrush, start sloshing the paint around, and make the work. You really have to think about how do I not only do the hard job of creating something really cool, but now within the constraints of making it small enough, being being making it be able to fit onto the chain and, you know, then layering on these different things that people like Nahiko have done. Nahiko, I'd love to hear your perspective on how thinking of the blockchain as a medium changes the way that we approach the topic of creating art and maybe touching on the recent the recent work of yours, the pond, and explaining a bit about that.
Speaker 3 Yes. So first, thank you for the invitation. Yes. Yes. And yes to everything that's been said up until now. I think the moment it starts to be difficult to innovate and that you feel that everything's been done is also the moment it becomes interesting as a creator. And to answer also for the the blockchain part, a metaphor I like is seeing Ethereum as a world computer. And so basic NFT or, quote, unquote, basic NFTs, which I also have, they would just be about you storing a link on that computer. You know? And you say my art is there, you know, but you have to follow the link to see it. Then the step after that is saying, okay. I'm gonna store, my file, you know, my JPEG, my PNG, whatever, my video in this case.
I'm gonna compress it because, you know, I don't have much storage on that world computer and it costs a lot of money. And then the step after that is like saying, okay. I have this world computer. It can execute programs. Can I use this program, the, you know, this execution to create something interesting? And and use, basically, the the blockchain itself as the medium, know, you instead of saying it's a frame and you put the artwork inside it, saying, I treat it as the canvas itself and and try to do something interesting with it. Again, not saying that only this matters. I myself have, you know, very different kinds of artworks, but I definitely think it's, something that that needs to be explored. And I guess everyone here listening and here on the podcast is this, I think six five two nine had a thread where he was talking about people, you know, even in the ancient ages, people being of different kinds.
And I guess we are the kind who explore and taste this beautiful flower we find in in some remote place and die of poison because it was it was actually poisonous, but we explore. You know, we do the the kind of the dirty work, and and maybe we find something interesting.
Speaker 11 Maybe not. We'll see. So it's really you put it in a great way. Thinking of it as a world computer, thinking of, you know, traditionally putting the art into Arweave and then linking it into that world computer versus actually having the file hosted on that world computer so that it's not needing to be pointed somewhere. I love the way you explain that. Would you be able to go deeper into the pond on how you made that work and, like, what that work means to you? Sure.
Speaker 3 So I've had this idea for a long time. I had seen that, SuperRare had their auctions on chain. So, that means that whenever you bid on an artwork, it's actually stored on chain. Not indefinitely, but the the the action itself happens on chain. So you can use that as, like, a, art supplies as a FFF would say. And, I'm talking about FFF because he had done the world computer sculpture garden, which was an exhibition, I think, last year, or maybe beginning of the year, which was a bunch of artists using the blockchain as a medium. It's amazing. Look it up. And I got contacted by Janu who wanted to basically do kind of a follow-up to that exhibition. So he had contacted a few of us. Right? We we are starting to be a big enough group so that you can't have everyone in one exhibition.
You know? So, obviously, there's a lot of people missing, but, you know, some of us in there. And the idea was to do a follow-up on the World Computer Sculpture Garden and do an exhibition where every artwork is trying to use, you know, the the blockchain as a medium in in some way. And this in this exhibition, we had the dip piece, which is, you know, kind of historical by nature. And we had very interesting pieces, you know, even very you know, we had ZK proof artworks. The only other one I I know two other ones. I think Mathcassels did one, and there was one in the World Computer Sculpture Garden too. Right? But it's like three out of hundreds of millions of NFTs. You know? So you have three unique artworks, which is kind of a a cool thing.
And and so, yeah, when I got contacted, I immediately said yes because I was like, I already have this technique I wanna use of basically using the the bidders as a way to change the artwork. And so I you know, gas is super cheap right now, so I was able to store the image on chain. And then I basically do a kind of a photo manipulation on chain. So if you've ever touched Photoshop, you have different layers. And I basically do that inside HTML where I layer up, flowers for each bit. So if you had a bid, even if you don't win the artwork, you're now part of the artwork for what I call eternity, you know, for as long as Ethereum lives on, whatever that that duration is. So, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 11 Damn. Super cool. Super cool. Very clever. I love the the nature that comes into play when putting stuff on chain. It's a whole other world, and I love the rabbit hole of it all too because you start to realize, like, okay. Like, let me understand how this works. Then you start to realize, wait. So, like, you have to actually really think through so many different parts of the work. It's not just a like I said, simply just making art. It really is about thinking about all these constraints and making the art within those constraints, and then the execution becomes part of the art as well. So, like, Peng, I wanna ask you about, your collections that you've created and the way that you're viewing the blockchain as a medium. How do you feel that, as far as, like, the way you're progressing and what you're building, why are you drawn to using the blockchain as a medium?
Speaker 12 I don't know. I just fell in love with the blockchain and and the the kind of endless possibilities there are. And and then also, you know, all of the other things that the blockchain brings us, you know, decentralization, the freedom to transact, the not having to ask for permission to do something. I can just do it no matter how crazy it is or how crazy I think it is. The most that can happen is that it fails, but it doesn't really affect anybody else. It's just me unless, you know, the collection's going out, and then that's a whole other thing. But but, you know, I'm right now, I'm trying to you know, so I started the statics collection, which is fully on chain, everything stored SS stored too, and then breakers was the one that come after that.
And all of this is leading to a final collection that is all part of, you know, I'm trying to, not just create NFTs that live on the blockchain. I'm mixing physical art that lives on the blockchain that that is tied to the blockchain, and the physical art can exist without this without the blockchain talking to it. And it's makes it two things. I don't wanna give all of it away, but, there's some peep bits and pieces in the back here that I've been working on. But I'm trying to blend this whole thing together, you know, kind of creating this this kind of blockchain, this blockchain world, with the it's, you know, it's it it'll have the the broadcast wars is the main idea behind it, and everything will be stored fully on chain.
And the next, you know, the the next kind of storyline that comes off of it after breakers is kind of takes that to a whole other level where it'll live on multiple blockchains at the same time. It's a cross blockchain project that will bring in block chain data in order to create the artwork and everything 100 fully on chain because, you know, I think right now, you know, with every major medium that has or a medium shift that has ever started, there's always been times where it's, you know, misunderstood. It's commercialized, and and most of the time, it's dismissed as novelty, which is kind of where I'm at with kind of bringing the physical in it to take it to the physical world to show them that this this isn't just a novelty project. We're creating real art here using the blockchain, doing things that couldn't exist without the blockchain.
Kind of the same way, you know, photography and film and video art and net art and all of that stuff, it all went through kind of the same phases. Right now, we're, you know, we're at that point where blockchain art you know, the infrastructure kinda dominates most of the discourse around it. Most most everybody talks about the infrastructure currently. The markets usually overshadow any discussion about form or, you know, really overshadows the form period at this point, which is kind of expected this early in the process because I don't think blockchain as a medium really hasn't revealed its full language yet, probably because we haven't really translated it at this point. But I think this is the point where artists who are treating the blockchain as a medium matter the most. This point right now where we're kind of decoding the whole thing as we go.
And and, you know, for me, I'm just trying to I'm trying to do something. I don't wanna do something different just for the sake of doing something different, but I also wanna do something that's just crazy different, something that, you know, it needs the blockchain in order to survive. In order to live, it needs the blockchain to do that. And there's just, you know, it's it goes back to the whole thing. There's so many ways to use the blockchain as a medium, and this is where I I change my ideas for different things that I'm doing a lot because so many other people are building in the space, and they'll do something. I'll get inspired and be like, oh, I never thought about doing that before and then kind of taking off from there and doing a little research and and kind of exploring and coming up with something even different, something even crazier.
And at some point, I'm gonna have to say, like, oh, okay. Well, this is it. It's gotta go out like this. But but, yeah, right now, I'm just really enjoying discovering what I can do on the blockchain and finding ways of taking that out to the world, finding ways of putting that in some kind of some kind of physical package that is different than just hanging it on a wall, just displaying it in a frame. You know? Something that's that's really different.
Speaker 11 Yeah. Like, I feel like, you know, for people listening and who aren't familiar with art on blockchain, I wanna try to translate to them why this is significant. Because to us, it seems very obvious why it's significant because of the permanence, because of the provenance, because of the time that we're in, and how this is a new form of art, honestly, when you look at it because Ethereum was only created not too long ago. So, like, I wanna ask we can start with Marco. What is your take on why this is important? Why is blockchain art important? Why is using the blockchain as a medium interesting?
Speaker 4 It's not important. Nothing's important. But then again, everything's important. Right? Like, is art important? Like, it's all just yeah. You know, we can I think we saw it last week with, you know, zero zero ten and all the trad art critics coming in, whoever that that lady was and stuff? And, you know, she's got a PhD. She studied art. She knows her stuff. I'm like, come on. For fuck's sake. Like, you know yeah. No one knows if it's important, man. What what's important, I think, to me is that I feel like I've got an opportunity to be in something that is just fun and exciting and maybe important. Maybe this artwork that we're creating will be permanent. When I first got in, the permanence thing was a big thing for me.
I've, you know, been fucking around with with digital art, verticomas for twenty years, and I'd love to find some of that stuff I built in Flash in the early two thousands. And some of it's on way back to Unchained, but I don't have any of that. And, you know, I've lost so much stuff, and it's you know, I am 99.9% confident that when I'm on my deathbed that some of this fully on chain or all of it, this fully on chain stuff that I'm building will be around. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know. Maybe it's gonna be a laughing matter. But you know? So is it important at the end of the day, is it important to your to to yourself? You know, do you feel proud of what you're building? Are you getting something from it?
I think, collectively, if enough of a feel enough of us feel like that, we will create something. I think what's largely not discussed is the time where we're at at the moment. You know, the connectedness is you know, we talk about networked art, and, you know, the artwork itself is networked in terms of, let's say, composability or we're, you know, we're we're we're just playing off each other's ideas and stuff like that. But I think the concepts and the fact that we're tuned in twenty four seven, the fact that AI is coming for for everything is is incredible opportunity. I think the previous art movements you listen. There was definitely, you know, comms and digital art has been around from the fifties, but nothing I don't think, like like, what's happened in the last sort of five, ten years where we're know, you I'm jumping on calls.
I was on a call yesterday with someone in Uruguay. I think I've probably spoke to people in a 100 different countries over the last couple years, and we we're we're throwing back ideas. He goes pawns. That's an exact idea that I had in terms of using bids as the artwork. It was gonna visually look very different. So I think there is this network art that's happening here, and, hopefully, collectively, we do do something important. But I think there's also just people are just taking themselves too much too serious. And I guess in combating back getting back to chunks was that's what Backseat and I were saying all last year was obviously, it was the bear and the the name coins and everything else. We just kept saying, people just wanna have fun. You know, I think fun is is massively underrated.
You know, everyone's lives are so busy, and the world's fucking messed up, especially what happened recently and all that. And and, you know, we just wanna jump on, and we wanna have a bit of fun. And if if the art is is fun, then great. You know, fun can mean a lot of different things. Right? Like, you know, I get a lot of enjoyment from from geeky stuff. Other people get enjoyment just from collecting simple little PFPs. So so, yeah, hopefully, that's answered your question.
Speaker 11 No. That's a great answer, honestly. And you're right. I mean, you know, it's subjective what's important, what's not. And I think, like, ultimately, the The real, like, thing that I'm getting at is wanting to be able to convey to a, you know, a normal person out there who's listening and saying, alright. Like, this is intriguing, but what does it mean? What how does it work? And I think that it's kind of tricky to be able to explain in layman's terms. I think Nikiko did a really good job in initially explaining, like, how it's like a world computer. But, like, I'm wanting to try to convey in the words of, like, you know, people who are proficient in leveraging the blockchain in order to create something of substance, things that are unique and cool and intriguing. How do we explain to people?
And not not even that we need to explain, but really, like, asking the question, what does this make possible that working with a canvas does not? Like, what does the blockchain make possible that the traditional art world could never accomplish because it doesn't have the same network and connectivity?
Speaker 4 And just on that, I think, you know, there is nothing wrong with canvas and physical art. And Right. Right. My wife's an artist. You know, she's done this. It's one my favorite pieces. But if you look at art, and I I love history of art and, you know, even basically, since the cave paintings, you know, like, tens of thousands of years ago, you know, only really in very recent times has art sort of evolved. And, you know, I I I am a big fan of or I I do feel like spatial art and AR art and and VR art is coming. But, yeah, like, a lot of art, even, you know, Malevich, you know, a 100 ago, this the square on the canvas, you know, it was still a it's still a square on the canvas sort of thing, and and, you know, it we have an opportunity to create something, a whole new form of art.
We really, really do and and evolve it, and there'll always be a time and a place for just, you know, painted I love printing out. I've got loads of frames here, a lot of my NFTs. I've got a Batsu GIF, and I just printed that as five frames. So, like, I think we'll always have that, but we do have an opportunity to really push it. And, you know, the traditional people are gonna push back on that and go, like, look at look at people's dogs, like, the robotic dogs. Obviously, I'm a bit biased at at Pancham for for him and for for the dogs, but but, you know, it that's art. That's incredible art that they were taking selfies of people and and pooping them out. The fact that people didn't get that, like, just shows, you know, how dinosaurs they are and the opportunity we've got to just do some something fucking cool because, you know, that is the art of today.
That is the, you know, the Marievich Square. People will laugh at that, but it it is. You know?
Speaker 11 Love the take. Nahiko, I'd love to get your take on this. What do you feel that leveraging the blockchain as a medium unlocks that traditional art mechanisms simply don't offer that same opportunity?
Speaker 3 I have no idea. No. But, seriously, that's kind of my job or our job, you know, of this little group we have to figure it out, I think. I I I actually wrote a manifesto last year about, you know, blockchain as a medium art. And in it, I I used the metaphor, which I I thought again. So I I I grabbed the the tweet just so I have it at hand. But, basically, the idea was that the Lumiere brothers, they created, you know, the an early camera prototype. You know? So they invented video, let's say. Right? But the first thing they did was just film what they had around them. Right? So it's kind of a documentary. You know, they went to nearby cities and filmed it, blah blah blah. It's just a documentary. It's the most intuitive thing you can do with a camera.
And then they projected it, did some projections, and in in the audience, and this is a true story, there was George Melies, who saw the camera, he was like, oh, I can use that to then paint on the film. And, basically, he invented VFX. You know? And to me, there's a parallel here where George, George Melies is our group. You know, we're trying to find new ways to work with this medium. And and, basically, the Lumiere brothers are, like, the early NFT platforms. They introduced this new medium, but the first thing that they did was, like, the obvious one. Not that it's bad. Again, you know, I I love documentaries. It's just the most obvious thing to do. And I think it's interesting to have people try to explore. Okay. We have this new medium video. What what can we do with it? You know?
How can we tweak it? How can we mess with it? You know? And and kind of destroy it, paint on the film, and try to do something interesting. So I don't really know what we can do with the blockchain that we can't do with the canvas yet. You know? Not all of it. I know for sure that, you know, networked art in some way can't exist, outside of the blockchain. You know, obviously, the pond, I think chunks, you know, all the all the interaction, all the Mark, I mentioned it, you know, the financialization, or at least using the financial aspects as, a, again, paint in some way. All of this to me doesn't seem like something you can do outside of the blockchain. I have other ideas even for future projects, and I don't wanna get give Marcus ideas. I don't wanna taint him, you know.
But yeah. Got got I've got That's our job.
Speaker 4 I've got a bible of ideas. Don't worry. There there you go.
Speaker 3 No. But actually, you know, I'm I'm I actually got Front Run also on that idea right right after. But Mhmm. I think what I love about this space is when I get surprised, is when I see an artwork by someone and I'm like, oh, I didn't think about this. It's so elegant. It's so beautiful. I love it. You know? And so that's what I'm trying to trigger with my work. I'm trying to surprise you, you know, kind of like a magician where, like, oh, you didn't know you could do this. You know? So at least that's the works I enjoy. And and so, obviously, it's the ones I try to create.
Speaker 11 Peng, what do you think?
Speaker 12 Alright. I was I was wait I was waiting to get a chance here because
Speaker 12 You know, things that we can create on the blockchain that traditional artists can't create. I mean, just right off the top, you know, we've got programmatic evolution. There are state changes, delayed revelation, conditional existence. I mean, you could literally create an art that doesn't exist until it's viewed. You could create art that mutates after it transfers, create art that reacts to something that happens decades from now. I mean, none none of that is possible in static media or in the traditional realms of art. I can't do that on a canvas. I can't make a canvas. Well, I, you know, I wonder if I could. But it it that's another subject. But, you know, you can't traditionally make a canvas that reacts to something ten years from now.
I can create blockchain art that lives on the blockchain, utilizes blockchain data to decide when it should react to something and completely change that artwork, and possibly even finishing the message of that artwork decades from now. And and then there's I I mean, you know, traditionally, permanence in the art world meant that you had to get put into a museum. You had to have a gallery put you up. You had to have some foundation come in and give you grants, and there was all these gatekeepers, and you had all these things to move through. But blockchain I mean, we've got persistence without permanence. You you know, we, survival here is independent of any identity. I can put my art on the blockchain. Nobody can do anything to get rid of that art on the blockchain. That art is forever on the blockchain now, and nobody can change that.
Even if I send it to a burn address, it is still on the blockchain. That artwork is there forever. And, you know, we hear I hear the conversations a lot in the space about legacy, people talking about legacy, which I on some hands, I think that's kind of a ridiculous that's like talking about why what we're doing here is important for the future. Well, we're not the future, so we don't get to decide what's important for the future. We don't get to decide who becomes legacy or what becomes legacy. We can just determine whether it's important to us, as Marcus said, and and leave behind the bits and pieces to create that legacy from, which separates which even separates blockchain art from the early digital art in that you know, think of well, just for myself, how much artwork I've lost.
You know, I started in the the tech world and the graphic design and the digital art world back in 1996 just to date myself a bit. But over those years, I've lost tons of work that no longer exist. It's not all stored on a server anywhere. There's bits and pieces that are on the the way back engine. They've in fact, they had a an art gallery back in a digital art gallery in 1998 on the Internet from '98 to 2001. The only evidence that this exists are three pages that were indexed at three different time periods on the way back engine, and only one of those pages have my name attached to them so I can prove that this was the you know, this was my art and this was my website, and blockchain fixes that.
They're they're really it's it's important because it gives us a way to to to leave those bits and pieces for the legacy that might be built tomorrow by the people of tomorrow. Should they decide that something we're doing right now is deserving of becoming legacy, at least now there'll be something there for them to see.
Speaker 11 Super interesting to think about. Like, how much of what we know now is going to be rotted from LinkRot? Like, how much of the Internet as a whole will be rotted from LinkRot? And Mhmm. You know, technically, yes, the blockchain fixes that. But will people leverage the blockchain in order to solve that in some way? I mean, the wayback machine, I don't know the technicalities behind how it works. Do any of you guys know how that works? How they archive things? Well yeah. I don't know if you were Mark, I don't know if you were about to say something.
Speaker 4 No. I've never actually looked into it. I think they're just they're just they're just running snapshots every so often of of indexing sites and and taking a snapshot. And I love it. I've I went down a rabbit hole of it recently, but I don't know yet. I think it's not for profit, but that could could conceivably just disappear right as well. So I don't know. I don't think it's decentralized in any manner. You know, that's that's the power of of Ethereum is that we have it in our own hands to keep this alive and and, you know, it it is genuinely, you know, a world a world computer. And, you know, it's again, I don't think people really get that, you know, that it is you know, it's all sort of owned by us. We have the power in our hands.
You know, like, people anywhere in the world can can buy this art, and they can they can flip it instantly and but the power is is in our hands, and I and I I don't think that's existed before. So and on the permanent thing, like, that was a big thing for me when I got into it, and it's and it still is, but, like, KVAR is still around from ten to thousand years ago and and other art, you know, renaissance and stuff like that. So as time goes by, ironically, I'm less like, I I still think it's super important, and I I think it's amazing, but it's it's more that networked art thing that we can do, the protocol art. Like, what can we do that can't be done elsewhere? And and what I'd love to see is more actual collaboration between between the likes of us in here.
Like, a lot of us Solidity is is incredible because it's the most open source. Like, I can literally see everyone's everyone's code, and that's to me, that's a game changer because from web two, it's just like, you know, I used to I used to decompile flash sites and and all the try and learn. And now you just get on Etherscan or contract reader, and you can just see exactly what's in there. But I do feel like we need to all sort of collaborate as well. Like, a lot of us work in our silos, and I probably work best solo, but I would never have built chunks if it wasn't with with Backseat. So, you know, I I think there's a lot of cool stuff there. Like, I I was looking at Exquisite Corpse recently, the surrealist, where they would draw, like, a head and someone would draw a body and someone would then draw the feet.
This one artist, I forget his name, has one that he did it over ten years. He would he would travel around all around the world and get people to just continue drawing this drawing, and they would just see the little previous bit. I think there's a lot of cool stuff we can do together, collaborative work, the algo project recently where, you know, you could just join your artwork up at six other people's artwork. I think there's a lot of really cool stuff we can we can do there, again, that that can't be done elsewhere.
Speaker 11 Yeah. It's definitely true that we're only scratching the surface with the the creative side of what has been done. Like, especially collaboratively, I think there's so much exciting things that will happen in the future as people have the ideas. And, like, World Computer Sculpture Garden, that's incredibly cool. Like, different things like that, they push the space forward because they're making people start thinking outside the box even more. And the more that we think outside the box, the more fascinating it becomes, the more interesting, more people that become magnetized in. I love the idea of the on chain community becoming more collaborative and thinking of ways to help facilitate those collaborations from the aspect of maybe the digital asset museum somehow or just all of us coming together. You know, we have our group chats that we're in and all that, but you're right about how we do tend to work in silos.
And sometimes it's way easier to work in silos, but sometimes it's better to do the thing that's a little less easy just so we can actually accomplish something new potentially. Like, love seeing the intimate systems launch. You know, it's it's just incredible to see people like you guys and, you know, like, did and Crypto Bushi and Ella and all of us in this group chat of, incredible people doing stuff in the on chain community, pushing boundaries and trying new things. And, I just really look forward to seeing what will come next and what we don't even know what's gonna be next. You know?
Speaker 4 And, Satoshi, back back to you. Like, with Digital Asset Museum, like, what is sort of the goal there, and and what's your general arc? Because it it this is something that I've thought about a lot as well as, you know, documenting this and having, you know, sort of hubs people can go to to learn or see and, you know, share it to Tokenfox with Onchain Checker, especially since OpenSea has got more, you know, crypto side of things is, you know that's an incredible tool. Was using that at at what I am last night to check some stuff I was building. So I do feel like we need we need more of that of those hubs, those tools, those apps. Again, there's some cool stuff happening, and you always look back and go, oh, I wish I could document that better. So shout it to you. But, yeah, what's
Speaker 4 know, a quick question back to you. What's the overall goal with with DAM?
Speaker 11 Yeah. Of course. And I appreciate you asking that. Honestly, the goal of the Digital Asset Museum, first and foremost, is really to scale the world into web three, to welcome the world into web three. And to do that in, basically, the ways of preserving the moment as we're living it. But beyond just that, it's giving the platform to have people have the education of how to get involved in web three and in this space to get their foot in the door, but then also to nurture and uplift and champion the artists of this moment. So we do curations, and we do talks and summits and things like this to really preserve the moment, but also to pave the path forward for the people who will come after us. So welcoming the world into web three, but also really preserving everything that's happening, and it's a massive undertaking.
So the North Star is to really preserve everything that's happened since the Bitcoin white paper and to put that on chain in some capacity to allow us to look back and say, this is fully preserved, and this is what happened. Not saying, like, you know, this is better than this or this it should be this way, but more so saying this happened. That's a major, major, endeavor of the museum. Obviously, this takes massive amounts of time, energy, and resources, and funding, and all of it being fueled as a nonprofit, being fueled by sponsors, being fueled by initiatives like curations and different things like that. You know, we're about a year and a half into, the creation of the museum.
The goal is, of course, to create a physical museum where people can visit, understand, learn more, and get their foot in the door again with, like, okay, you know, NFTs, digital art, all of that, but of one an umbrella for giving people a full understanding of the space, giving people a place to go when they're curious about web three. Like, right now, there's no place to go when it comes to how do I get Part as an artist, let alone how do I get started minting artwork on chain. That's much more niche. But the goal of the summit too to really make it clear, because I think people are still wrapping their head around the purpose of the summit, is to have talks where we can then create a foundation for a platform that is a public good, accessible by anyone with an Internet connection to have education, college level education in the realm of web three.
All of it, again, being powered by sponsors is, you know, the point of building a nonprofit so that it could be completely for the public, not gated for anyone, but totally for the public good. So the endeavor and initiative is multifold, but really at the core is welcoming the world into web three so that the space can grow, so that we can have the next person come into this that makes a game changing product or service that in really onboards the world into web three. So, yeah, you know, it's it's definitely a Yep. Possible endeavor, but very
Speaker 4 exciting. And, like, it's basically 2026 now, you know, apart from the the the d five stuff, like, and NFTs is a huge part of crypto. Right? Like, it's, you know, it's it's why we're all sort of in the space. And so, you know, it's we have our ups and downs, obviously, and the the the token, the prices, and everything else. But, like, I think it's it's it's clear to say, listen, art is here and and, you know, it's it's intertwined, and it's such a huge part of this crypto thing. And I keep going back to to that when I talk to Normies about about crypto is that, you know, like, digital art is here, and I go into a traditional gallery and I ask them, hey. Like, not even NFTs. I say digital art. They're like, oh, no. We don't do that. You know what I mean?
Like, it's it's mad. It's crazy the opportunity we have, and and so kudos to you for for for for trying to enable that.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. No. I mean, digital art is inevitable. We're a digitized world. I mean, like, if you look and see what the next generation is doing, they're making digital art. They are just inherently digital beings. Their whole life has been digital. I mean, 95% of kids, you see them walking around with this rubberized iPad attached to their hip. I mean, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know. But, I will say that we are inherently living in a digital world, and digital art networked art is just a better way of well, let me rephrase that. It is a more versatile and less friction way to share art. Like, only so many people can go and view the Mona Lisa every day in person, but you can scale the viewing of something online to millions of people in just a moment.
So the fact that we're so digitally inclined, it there's no doubt that digital art is here to stay. NFTs are simply the way in which we can track ownership and provenance. I think that it got conflated with art because of the run up in 2021 of, you know, CryptoPunks and Bored Apes and PFPs that people became like, okay. Those are NFTs. NFTs mean collectibles. NFTs mean Bored Apes. But NFT really is just a non fungible token. It's a way of tracking ownership, and that can really I mean, that can help in so many different ways in so many different sectors that it hasn't even touched yet. I mean, one day, I believe we'll be able to go up to a empty lot and be able to buy the lot and with our ether wallet and literally have a three d printed home made there where your key is your wallet, which is an NFT, that you're able to unlock and get inside of the home, and you'll be able to transfer it to someone just as easily.
Like, I don't know if it'll happen exactly that way, but I think that it's probably a better way than having a property deed that takes, you know, sixty nine million years just to get created and sent over, and it's a piece of paper. And I think finance is obviously just like, it's a better way to transact on chain that's more transparent. It's instant. It's less costly. I mean, the fact that it costs $40 or whatever to do a wire if I were to try to send money to New Zealand or Australia, I mean, like, that's just I mean, we have better technology at our hands, and people are using it, and it's just easier. So I think that, you know, the Digital Asset Museum, we're here to capture that moment and to fossilize it, to preserve it so that people can study it for years to come, and to lift up the artists and champion the artists that are spending their life, you know, building their life's work within this space.
But, you know, it's not an easy task, and it's definitely something that takes constant work. And, you know, building a nonprofit is a tricky type of business. You have to really, pour your heart into it and have a very strong mission. So, yeah, that's my rant. That's my, end of the day TED talk, I guess you'd say. I love
Speaker 11 Yeah, I appreciate you asking that. And I know we kind of diverted there off the main topic of the talk, but I do feel it just it all fits in together. But, yeah, you know, it's awesome to be able to be building these kinds of things and to have the focus around this realm. There's so much talent in the realm of digital assets, digital art. Blockchain is a you know, building on the blockchain, it's niche now, but I feel like more and more people, it will become understood by more and more people to be able to put stuff on chain. It'll make sense to people why you're doing that. It's not gonna take a long explanation. It'll just become you know, for the kids being born today, they're they're gonna be born into a world that leverages blockchain. You know?
So I think it's gonna be a a totally different world, more efficient. So it'll be really cool to see how things continue to evolve.
Speaker 11 Well, honestly, it's been an amazing talk. I really appreciate you guys coming here and spending the time diving in, really discussing all this epic epic stuff about how we can leverage blockchain, why it's unique, and how it works. And and it's just incredible to get to spend the time with you guys. You're all all three of you are legends, and I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day or your morning for Marco, your evening for Peng. And, Nayiko, appreciate you being here. Thank you guys for taking the time today.
Speaker 12 Thanks for having me. Was fun. Thanks for so much. It was fun.
Speaker 3 Yeah. Thanks so much, and congrats on keeping it up for six hours, man. Think
Speaker 11 Although, I'm starting to now just to dissociate a little bit. Hopefully How many
Speaker 4 hours are you you running for? How many are you trying to go for?
Speaker 11 Oh, no. This well, this will be the end now.
Speaker 4 Okay. Cool. Yeah. I know Roger Dickerman's doing another twenty four hour one on on Friday, Saturday. I don't know how he does it.
Speaker 11 Crazy. How to foster a Crazy. To figure out how you
Speaker 12 But, hey, we appreciate you, Satoshi. You I I love what you're doing at the digital asset museum. The only thing people outside of this space here is we're a big scam, that NFTs are just people trying to get rich. Nobody even gets to see all the creativity that happens here. And and the only way that changes is through education and taking it to them and giving them something to see. So props to what you're building.
Speaker 11 Doug. I appreciate you. Well, much love, guys. We will wrap this. This has been day two of the Web three Summit. Thank you guys for tuning in. Thank you all for being here, Nikko, Marco, and Peng. We'll catch you guys again. I believe Peng might even be on oh, maybe not, actually. I think this might be the last time, that we'll be on a panel for this summit, but I appreciate you guys being here. It's, it's been awesome. Thank you. We'll go ahead and wrap the summit. Thank you, guys. We have 894 people watching live right now. That's incredible. I appreciate you, being here and for taking the time to learn and participate and ask questions, and people who made comments and sent me messages. Again, I have to thank our sponsors.
I really, really appreciate the people who have generously given their resources to the Digital Asset Museum, not just even in from donors, but people who've also, like, donated the equipment to you. Shout out to Devin Zander donating the equipment for us to, use for this summit. Shout out to the Moxie Hotel for allowing us to have their space. Shout out to all of our amazing sponsors, our lead sponsor, NightShare. Shout out to every single other one of our sponsors who've supported this and really generously have given to make this come to life. Cindy, MJ Data, OXMQQ, Jason Patterson, Danielle Patterson, the DeFi Fund, Autonomous Artifacts, Puma, Killian Moore, the guys at OkayDGen, Felix Felix Felix from Cyperdudes, Odeus, and our newest sponsor, EntoVos, absolute amazing soul. We appreciate you for supporting this initiative and this mission. It's not possible without sponsors to make this come to life.
This is a public good that we're building, and it's, completely completely driven by the generosity of sponsors. So thank you so much for being a part of this. We're gonna be back tomorrow for day three of the web three summit. We have some epic talks, and, really stoked to, facilitate those talks and emcee and host yet again. Thank you guys for being here and for spending the time with us today. Much love.